# Has anyone ever won Civ4 in real life? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 5, 2011, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-won-civ4-in-real-life/587883 "2011-07-05T11:00:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-won-civ4-in-real-life/587883/41 "2011-07-06T05:50:34Z")
> [@flight](#): > > I think New York and LA absolutely qualify as Legendary, but I don’t think Chicago makes the cut, and I don’t think any other country even has two. Without reading the rest of the thread, I can think of only a couple: - China: Shanghai, Beijing, and Hong Kong. Maybe Shenzen in 50+ years, too. - Brazil: Sao Paulo and Rio de Janiero. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-won-civ4-in-real-life/587883/42 "2011-07-06T06:16:35Z")
> [@lazybratsche](#): > > Right, but there has been a unified China in some form since the 13th century. That includes three dynasties, the Republic, and the PRC, but those have been changes of leadership of largely the same people and chunk of land. I could make the claim that a nontrivial bit of Europe has almost always been unified by claiming that classical Greece, the Roman Empire, Carolingian Empire, Holy Roman Empire, Austro-Hungarian Empire, Nazi Empire, NATO/UN, and modern EU are all essentially the same form of ‘unified Europe’. It would be bizarre, to some extent, but how much more bizarre is it to claim that there’s only ever been one unified China? > [@](#): > > Before that there were many successive Chinese imperial dynasties, with written records stretching back to 2100 BC. Granted there were several periods where China was split into several warring kingdoms, but those are the exception. Right. Compare that to my lineage above, which still leaves out important steps in the European civilization. > [@](#): > > China has been dominated by a single language No. Chinese is not one language even to this day, any more than Spanish and German are the same language. > [@](#): > > single writing system I could go two ways with this: Point up the continuity from Egyptian hieroglyphics to Phoenician to Latin, Greek, and Cyrillic, and point to how impossible it would be to communicate with the average Chinese person today using only oracle bone script, or just bring up the Mongolian script (which, BTW, is also descended from the Phoenician script). > [@](#): > > single government Which often didn’t control even a plurality of what we now call China, and hasn’t continuously existed in any event. > [@](#): > > and single ethnicity Not gonna touch this mess from a dozen parsecs away. Back off before this gets stupid. > [@](#): > > In Europe there have been dozens of languages from several language families Like how it is in modern China, then. > [@](#): > > several different writing systems Several? I can think of a few families, when you take the inter-relationships into account. > [@](#): > > It’s been composed of a multitude of small political entities that sometimes united as nation-states. Europe has only occasionally been “united” by relatively short-lived imperial conquests. I think I touched on this quite well above. If you apply similar ignore-the-exceptions rules to Europe, they have quite a continuity going over there. > [@](#): > > I don’t think it’s racist to describe China as more culturally, politically, and ethnically unified throughout history than Europe. It’s not racist deliberately, but it does necessitate viewing a very complex place from a very far remove. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-won-civ4-in-real-life/587883/43 "2011-07-06T08:07:29Z")
> [@lazybratsche](#): > > Pssst… people are mentioning specific “[World Wonders](http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/wonders)” which are included in Civ IV. I’m well aware of how Great Wonders work in the game, but I don’t quite know what your point is.. My point is that if we don’t invoke such a silly convention, then we are forced to include similar constructions under different names. For example, the banking district of London, referred to simply as “The City”, is exactly analogous to Wall Street, although predating it by almost 150 years, and Nelson’s column is exactly analogous to the Statue of Liberty and the West End is exactly analogous to Broadway, though predating it by centuries. Almost any major city anywhere in the world have identical Statue-on-a-Pedestal monuments and banking and theatre districts. In short, if having a 100 year old Statue-on-a-Pedestal monument and a banking district makes a city legendary, then every major city in the world is legendary. It’s only by demanding that only constructions specifically named in the game count that you can reach any other conclusion, a conclusion that is ridiculous on its face when applied to the real world since it forces us to conclude that, for example, Oxford University is less culturally significant than Broadway or that the Louvre is less culturally relevant than the Pentagon. > [@](#): > > Admittedly the inclusion of a particular historical construction as a “Wonder” is an arbitrary decision by American game designers… Exactly. 20% of all the culturally significant constructions in the history of the world were created by the USA? Rock and Roll is included, but the printing press or classical art are not? Broadway is included, but not the West End? The Pentagon is more culturally important than Oxford University or the Louvre? Your apparent insistence that only named constructions can be used, while identical, older and more significant constructions are ignored makes it impossible to produce a sensible answer as applies to the real world. It just becomes a question about the game, and really belongs in Cafe Society. Based on the game list, New York is the most culturally advanced city in human history. Not only is New York only city ever to produce more than one culturally significant project, it produced four of them. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-won-civ4-in-real-life/587883/44 "2011-07-06T14:34:26Z")
> [@lazybratsche](#): > > DC certainly is full of culture-producing improvements at least, and a lot of the city’s “production” is dedicated to various cultural purposes. There’s the Pentagon (a World Wonder), the Palace, and the various monuments and museums out to count as a National Wonder at least. Maybe we could shoehorn them into the National Epic wonder? > > Still… every capitol is stuffed with significant monuments and museums, which aren’t much renowned in other countries. Yeah, but – well, look, think INDEPENDENCE DAY. Imagine you’re shooting a movie where the aliens start blowing up cities around the world, and you want audiences around the world to get the idea. How will they know it’s Paris? Well, let’s show a flying saucer looming over the Eiffel Tower – preferably with the Arc De Triomphe in the background, sure as you’d suggest “Egypt” with the sphinx and pyramids. Or you’d show Big Ben’s clock tower with a red double-decker bus. Or, y’know, Taj Mahal for the win. So, how do you visually establish for an international audience that we’re now in Washington DC? Well, you’d sweep back from the Lincoln Memorial to line up a shot of the Capitol flanked by the Washington Monument in all its reflecting-pool glory – preferably before revealing the White House and displaying the American flag. You’d likewise do that if Ben Stiller is set to have wacky adventures at the Smithsonian. You’d do it if Kevin Costner has no way out at Pentagon or if Nicolas Cage is planning the steal the Declaration of Independence from the National Archives. You’d do it if Will Smith is being declared an enemy of the state by the FBI. You’d do it if Julia Roberts has compiled some kind of pelican brief regarding goings-on at the Supreme Court Building, with or without showing her doing some plot-twist research at the largest-in-the-world Library of Congress. You almost can’t _ **not** _ do it. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-won-civ4-in-real-life/587883/45 "2011-07-06T14:58:15Z")
America, fuck no? I included Hollywood and Wall Street because of the world wide impact they appear to have in spreading (in game terms) American culture now. The Statue of Liberty is supposed to represent the “dream of opportunity” that many immigrants reached out for. I don’t get the same “vibe” from Nelson’s Column, which appears to be more of a national monument to military victory, and maybe an acknowlegment of a proud naval heritage. To dismiss them for being 100 years old (or less) is a bit subjective. Why not state that anything younger than 500 years is disqualified? 1000? The game itself “shrinks” the time scale (years per turn) as it moves forward towards the future. As mankinds general communication and engineering tech levels get higher, the potential (or incidence) for cultural, economic, and political change appears to increase. Just the internet alone seems to be affecting culture and/or political change, and it is only 15 years old. ---
**Author:** ![hammos1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ba8739/32.png) [@hammos1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hammos1)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-won-civ4-in-real-life/587883/46 "2011-07-06T15:17:51Z")
> [@flight](#): > > I think New York and LA absolutely qualify as Legendary, but I don’t think Chicago makes the cut, and I don’t think any other country even has two. Italy has a strong claim: Rome, Venice and Florence. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-won-civ4-in-real-life/587883/47 "2011-07-06T15:32:16Z")
U.S.A. obviously wins on all counts. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-won-civ4-in-real-life/587883/48 "2011-07-06T15:53:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Based on the game list, New York is the most culturally advanced city in human history. Not only is New York only city ever to produce more than one culturally significant project, it produced four of them. It’s not the only city with multiple wonders: Alexandria has the Great Library and the Great Lighthouse. Or at least, had. And it’s not that newer things are disqualified; they’re just less significant, because they’ve had less time to accumulate culture. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-won-civ4-in-real-life/587883/49 "2011-07-06T15:56:16Z")
Since answering this question seems to depend more on familiarity with the rules of the game than on a knowledge of world history, it’s probably better suited to the Game Room than GQ. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-won-civ4-in-real-life/587883/50 "2011-07-06T16:34:56Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It’s not the only city with multiple wonders: Alexandria has the Great Library and the Great Lighthouse. Or at least, had. > > And it’s not that newer things are disqualified; they’re just less significant, because they’ve had less time to accumulate culture. Paris also has two - Eiffel Tower and Notre Dame. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-won-civ4-in-real-life/587883/51 "2011-07-06T17:01:21Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Paris also has two - Eiffel Tower and Notre Dame. Isn’t Versailles a wonder? Or am I mixing Civ up with Rise of Nations? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-won-civ4-in-real-life/587883/52 "2011-07-06T17:10:55Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Isn’t Versailles a wonder? Or am I mixing Civ up with Rise of Nations? Yes, but Versailles is in Versailles, which is outside Paris. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-won-civ4-in-real-life/587883/53 "2011-07-07T02:34:09Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Yes, but Versailles is in Versailles, which is outside Paris. Well, it’s in the Paris metropolitan area, and accessible by commuter train. I think it counts as Paris for purposes of Civ. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-won-civ4-in-real-life/587883/54 "2011-07-08T00:18:49Z")
We’ll never know until the real world starts getting narrated by Leonard Nimoy. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-won-civ4-in-real-life/587883/55 "2011-07-08T01:56:29Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > We’ll never know until the real world starts getting narrated by Leonard Nimoy. What we need is a non-diegetic history of _The Universe_, one that _isn’t_ from an in-universe perspective and gives all of the behind-the-scenes production stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-won-civ4-in-real-life/587883/56 "2011-07-16T23:35:01Z")
[Here’s a list of all the wonders in Civ IV.](http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/wonders). Versailles is, indeed, included. New York seems the winner, though, going just by quantity, with Broadway, the Statue of Liberty, the United Nations, and Wall Street. I don’t think any other cities have four Great/National wonders, although I didn’t parse the list that closely. > [@Blake](#): > > I’m well aware of how Great Wonders work in the game, but I don’t quite know what your point is.. > > My point is that if we don’t invoke such a silly convention, then we are forced to include similar constructions under different names. For example, the banking district of London, referred to simply as “The City”, is exactly analogous to Wall Street, although predating it by almost 150 years, and Nelson’s column is exactly analogous to the Statue of Liberty and the West End is exactly analogous to Broadway, though predating it by centuries. Almost any major city anywhere in the world have identical Statue-on-a-Pedestal monuments and banking and theatre districts. But the game doesn’t have a wonder called West End, or Nelson’s Column. You can argue that the game should, but that’s outside the bounds of this thread. If we’re judging real life by the standards laid out by this video game, only Broadway gives you +50% culture and a stack of musicals to trade to other civilizations. West End is just another Theater, giving +3 culture, and some happiness bonuses. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2011, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-won-civ4-in-real-life/587883/57 "2011-07-16T23:48:33Z")
In the broader sense of civilization, the West has won certainly. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-won-civ4-in-real-life/587883/58 "2011-07-17T00:07:42Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > In the broader sense of civilization, the West has won certainly. You have no idea what this thread is about, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-won-civ4-in-real-life/587883/59 "2011-07-17T01:16:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Here’s a list of all the wonders in Civ IV.. Versailles is, indeed, included. New York seems the winner, though, going just by quantity, with Broadway, the Statue of Liberty, the United Nations, and Wall Street. I don’t think any other cities have four Great/National wonders, although I didn’t parse the list that closely. Wall Street is a national wonder, which means that each nation can have one. And there are other cities which have two Great Wonders and a variety of National Wonders, though it’s hard to say where the Heroic Epic and National Epic are. Rome (with the Sistine Chapel and Apostalic Palace, plus Palace and other national wonders) and Paris (with the Eiffel Tower, Notre Dame, and Versailles, plus Palace and others) are also strong contenders. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-won-civ4-in-real-life/587883/60 "2011-07-17T01:30:40Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [Here’s a list of all the wonders in Civ IV.](http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/wonders). Versailles is, indeed, included. New York seems the winner, though, going just by quantity, with Broadway, the Statue of Liberty, the United Nations, and Wall Street. I don’t think any other cities have four Great/National wonders, although I didn’t parse the list that closely. And – coming back around to the OP – a city with Hollywood plus a second city with the Pentagon plus a third city with Broadway and the UN and the Statue of Liberty means one country has plenty of World Wonders even before factoring in mere National Wonders like Wall Street and West Point and Mount Rushmore and so on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-won-civ4-in-real-life/587883.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-won-civ4-in-real-life/587883.md?page=4)