# Has anyone read Watchmen (Alan Moore comic)? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 6, 2002, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-read-watchmen-alan-moore-comic/112717 "2002-06-06T19:18:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2002, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-read-watchmen-alan-moore-comic/112717/21 "2002-06-07T07:12:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\* > And to comment on the story without spoiling it, I agree with author Peter David that the fate of Rorscarch was unnecessary. Who’s going to believe the certified psycho with bad body odor, anyway? Moore was tying up a loose end that didn’t need tying up. \*\* _SPOILERS_ Yea but he had a cool and dignified death and the kid printing his journal at the end wouldn’t have been as dramatic/cool/whatever otherwise. I felt bad that he died because he was my favorite character but in a way I was kind of glad. At least he stuck to his convictions. “Never compromise, not even in face of armageddon.” ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2002, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-read-watchmen-alan-moore-comic/112717/22 "2002-06-07T12:10:43Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Cisco \* > \*\* You mean besides the war in Afghanistan and the evil mastermind’s plot to cause terror in NYC?_\* Um…there was war in Afghanistan in the '70s and '80s too. Predicting a war in Afghanistan isn’t a terribly good show of prophetic powers . Or, if it is, I demand to be the SDMB’s resident psychic for predicting that “Republicans and Democrats in the Senate and the House of Reps will disagree!” Besides, in Watchmen, Moore was had the war in Afghanistan be was a Viet-Nam-esque war-by-proxy between the Soviets and the Americans (which was pretty close to the situation at the time: remember the Mujahadien?(sp) ) That’s not isn’t even remotely close to the current situation where we went into Afghanistan with Russia’s OK. Also, Ozy’s plot was not to “cause terror in NYC”. “Causing terror in NYC” was an unfortunate side-effect of his plan to unite the rest of the world. Bin Laden’s plot was to scare America into capitulating to his will. Again not even close to analagous. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Rocketeer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocketeer/32/4437_2.png) [@Rocketeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocketeer)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2002, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-read-watchmen-alan-moore-comic/112717/23 "2002-06-07T13:29:12Z")
Geez, you guys are missing the point on Rorschach. Rorschach is a psycho: Poor personal hygiene, crummy eating habits, no friends (except Dan), way too violent, a completely unsympathetic character. Spoilers ahead… And yet Moore make us empathize with him, shows us that in his way he’s a man of homor (probably the only character who actually really tried to stop Ozymandias) and gives him an heroic death, true to his principles even in the end. His death is an essential part of the theme of the book. In fact, I’d go further and say that the whole book is basically **about** Rorschach. ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2002, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-read-watchmen-alan-moore-comic/112717/24 "2002-06-07T13:46:29Z")
Spoilers I liked how the characters were not really good or evil. In fact, the “good” guys such as Dr. Manhattan were not really all that good (and very dangerous). And the “bad” guy, Ozymandias was actually trying to save the human race from nuclear destruction (to me it was clear that a massive nuclear exchange was only prevented by Ozymandias scheme). While many had to die to do it, look at the alternative. Man the last couple of books were like a kick in the wedding tackle. . . . Good stuff. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingDragonFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c89c15/32.png) [@FlyingDragonFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingDragonFan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2002, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-read-watchmen-alan-moore-comic/112717/25 "2002-06-07T13:58:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rocketeer \* > In fact, I’d go further and say that the whole book is basically **about** Rorschach. I don’t think I’d go quite this far. I do think that Rorschach’s death was an almost inevitable result of his unwillingness to compromise even in the face of the extreme situation that all the characters found themselves in. But _all_ of the characters faced it in their own way, each according to their individual personalities. To me it was more about how normal, flawed human beings react to a world that’s getting increasingly out of control. As **Sam Hell** said, other than Doctor Manhattan, they were all regular people, no power rings or flying in site, and had to deal with an almost unimaginable situation as “just” human beings. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2002, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-read-watchmen-alan-moore-comic/112717/26 "2002-06-07T13:58:56Z")
I always use the handle ‘Rorschach’ when playing online games, in reference to the Watchmen character. ---
**Author:** ![stankow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@stankow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stankow)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2002, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-read-watchmen-alan-moore-comic/112717/27 "2002-06-07T14:05:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*And to comment on the story without spoiling it, I agree with author Peter David that the fate of Rorscarch was unnecessary. Who’s going to believe the certified psycho with bad body odor, anyway? Moore was tying up a loose end that didn’t need tying up. \*\* Imagine you’re the smartest person in the world (this is easy for me, as I am). You have a plan that, if it fails in even the tiniest degree, will get you branded as the most heinous traitor to mankind EVER. If you’re lucky, you’ll get to die quickly once the truth about your plan comes to light. Which is the more attractive option: A – Letting the smelly psycho live and perhaps gain some resonance with the underground, eventually bringing your plan to light. B – Killing the smelly psycho and never having to worry about it. Me, I’d go with B. You’re already killing untold numbers of people, so what’s one more? ---
**Author:** ![MachV](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@MachV](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MachV)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2002, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-read-watchmen-alan-moore-comic/112717/28 "2002-06-07T14:39:21Z")
I am sooo past due for another reading. I read Watchmen & Dark Knight once a year. Every time I read Watchmen, I find some new detail that I hadn’t seen before. Incredible book. ---
**Author:** ![bafaa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e480ec/32.png) [@bafaa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bafaa)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2002, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-read-watchmen-alan-moore-comic/112717/29 "2002-06-07T14:41:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by stankow \* > \*\* > Imagine you’re the smartest person in the world (this is easy for me, as I am). You have a plan that, if it fails in even the tiniest degree, will get you branded as the most heinous traitor to mankind EVER. If you’re lucky, you’ll get to die quickly once the truth about your plan comes to light. Which is the more attractive option: > > A – Letting the smelly psycho live and perhaps gain some resonance with the underground, eventually bringing your plan to light. > B – Killing the smelly psycho and never having to worry about it. > > Me, I’d go with B. You’re already killing untold numbers of people, so what’s one more? \*\* Good point however Ozymandias actually decided to let Rorschach go. Dr Manhattan is the one who kills Rorschach. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2002, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-read-watchmen-alan-moore-comic/112717/30 "2002-06-07T14:52:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Hell \* > **I was a bit put off by the deaths of the dogs** You were supposed to be. Just because he’s the good guy, it doesn’t mean he’s a good guy. None of them were, except maybe Dreiberg. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![stankow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@stankow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stankow)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2002, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-read-watchmen-alan-moore-comic/112717/31 "2002-06-07T15:10:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bafaa \* > \*\*Good point however Ozymandias actually decided to let Rorschach go. Dr Manhattan is the one who kills Rorschach. \*\* Dammit. Why don’t I remember that? Well, same argument applies. Doctor Manhattan is obviously just a tad smarter than Ozymandias, and since the die had already been cast… ---
**Author:** ![Wolverine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wolverine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolverine)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2002, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-read-watchmen-alan-moore-comic/112717/32 "2002-06-07T15:12:39Z")
I let my friend (Mahaloth if he’s paying attention) borrow my TPB a couple of months ago. He just returned it last night. I was flipping through it and remembered just how great it is. I can’t stop praising it to others. SPOILERS …I did it thirtyfive minutes ago. CLASSIC ---
**Author:** ![tourbot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@tourbot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tourbot)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2002, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-read-watchmen-alan-moore-comic/112717/33 "2002-06-07T15:40:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*And to comment on the story without spoiling it, I agree with author Peter David that the fate of Rorscarch was unnecessary. Who’s going to believe the certified psycho with bad body odor, anyway? Moore was tying up a loose end that didn’t need tying up. \*\* Not surprisingly, Mr. David has completely missed the point of the ending here. First of all, it doesn’t make sense to think Moore did this to tie up loose ends. Because a couple of pages later, Moore gives us the possibility of Rorschach’s journal being published, basically re-untying that loose end. The ending isn’t a typical one, and I’m not sure I “get it” 100% either. It certainly raises more questions than it answers, though I think this is why it works as well as it does. Mainly what puzzles me is why Dr. Manhattan is the one to kill Rorschach, especially in light of his comment to Ozymandias (“nothing never ends…”). I don’t quite understand his motivation there, but then again that’s part of his character too. **stankow** , I don’t think the same argument can be applied. I really doubt if Dr. Manhattan cares what happens to Ozymandias much. He had come to care about humanity as a whole (hmm, maybe that answers my own question), but the only individual human he cared about was Laurie. ---
**Author:** ![WSLer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a6a055/32.png) [@WSLer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WSLer)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2002, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-read-watchmen-alan-moore-comic/112717/34 "2002-06-07T17:18:35Z")
What’s interesting to me is that Moore has said that when he & Gibbons got down to working on the last few issues, Moore found that he didn;t really care about the “superheros” in the story anymore and that if heh had a chance to go back and rewrtie the whole thing he would have put much more focus on what he called “the common man characters,” such as the police detectives, the guy who ran the newstand, the dyke cabbie etc. I have the limited edition hardcover which gives some extra artwork & stuff. It’s worth having, if you’re willing to pony up about $150 for it. One last note, Moore has recently said that he whas no plans EVER to do any more stories relating to the whole Watchmen universe, and is getting a bit disgusted with those “fanboys who refuse to leave well enough alone.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2002, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-read-watchmen-alan-moore-comic/112717/35 "2002-06-07T18:06:26Z")
I think the Watchmen is a marvelous work. Not only is Moore’s writing possibly the best the comic book genre has produced, IMO, but Gibbons’ art is superb. Every time I reread the Watchmen, I notice new things. Amazing. rjung: One thing that always struck me about Rorshach’s death was that he opted to die with his mask off. I think Moore and Gibbons were trying to show that he wanted to rejoin humanity. Fenris: Yes, before your post I knew that Moore based the Watchmen characters on the old Charleton characters. If I had to name my favorite characters, cisco, they would be Rorshach, Laurie, Hollis Mason (what a thoroughly decent guy), and Dan Drieberg. However, all the characters were well-drawn. And other than a disaster occuring in New York City (which happened every third issue in the old Doc Savage pulps), I really don’t see any parallels between Watchmen and 9/11/01. ---
**Author:** ![Rocketeer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocketeer/32/4437_2.png) [@Rocketeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocketeer)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2002, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-read-watchmen-alan-moore-comic/112717/36 "2002-06-07T18:36:52Z")
There is one thing that bugs me about the series, though: The pirate business. yeah, sure, Moore was trying to make a point about who the Enemy really is, but geez, it drug on so damned long… ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2002, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-read-watchmen-alan-moore-comic/112717/37 "2002-06-07T18:56:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > \*\* > > Um…there was war in Afghanistan in the '70s and '80s too. Predicting a war in Afghanistan isn’t a terribly good show of prophetic powers . Fenris \*\* Whoa whoa whoa, hold the phone pal. I made **NO** mention of predictions or “prophetic powers.” I believe I mentioned _parallels_ and _similarities_. It’s pretty hard to deny the fact that both Watchmen and the last 9 months contained conflict in Afghanistan and terror in NYC so I don’t see how you can say “not even close to analagous.” ---
**Author:** ![Doubting\_Robert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e495f1/32.png) [@Doubting\_Robert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubting_Robert)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2002, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-read-watchmen-alan-moore-comic/112717/38 "2002-06-07T19:53:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rocketeer \* > \*\*There is one thing that bugs me about the series, though: The pirate business. yeah, sure, Moore was trying to make a point about who the Enemy really is, but geez, it drug on so damned long… \*\* Personally, I loved the pirate comics. SPOILERS . . . The point that I think Moore was trying to make in both the pirate sub-plot and the main plot is that the ends **never** justify the means. He argues that the ends do not justify the means because there are no ends - you never know what will happen tomorrow, so you cannot know what the final result of your actions will be. Therefore, every action you take must be moral and justifiable in and of itself, so that what you have done is good and right. Since you cannot know what will happen tomorrow (such as the discovery of Rorschach’s manuscript) and cannot even know everything about what has already happened (as shown by the pirate story), the only path you can morally follow is one in which every act you take, taken by itself, is a moral act. Whether there are parallels between Watchmen and the terrible events of 9/11 or not, there is still reason to consider them together. Comparing this message to the actions of the United States government after 9/11, one has to have second thoughts about our attack on Afghanistan. It was politically necessary - the public would have been outraged if the government had not taken some forceful action - but, knowing there was no way to take military action without killing innocent people, and having no way to be sure that the attack would achieve the desired ends, was it a moral thing to do? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2002, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-read-watchmen-alan-moore-comic/112717/39 "2002-06-07T20:15:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rocketeer \* > And yet Moore make us empathize with him, shows us that in his way he’s a man of homor (probably the only character who actually really tried to stop Ozymandias) and gives him an heroic death, true to his principles even in the end. His death is an essential part of the theme of the book. In fact, I’d go further and say that the whole book is basically **about** Rorschach. Like **FlyingDragonFan,** I’m not sure if I’d go this far. Yes, Rorscach is the only one who tries to stop Ozymandis, but that’s because of his simplistic nature – Rorscach sees everything in terms of black-and-white (appropriately enough), and his approach to Ozy is the same. The others are also repulsed by Ozymandis’ game, but they can see things in shades of grey, and realize that given the _context_ of the situation, their hands were tied. ---
**Author:** ![Doubting\_Robert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e495f1/32.png) [@Doubting\_Robert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubting_Robert)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2002, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-read-watchmen-alan-moore-comic/112717/40 "2002-06-07T20:25:04Z")
I guess I have just tried to hijack this thread into something that belongs in Great Debates, where there must have already been some discussion of the actions taken in Afghanistan (although perhaps not using “Watchmen” as a source of moral guidance). Sorry. Please return to the original discussion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-read-watchmen-alan-moore-comic/112717.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-read-watchmen-alan-moore-comic/112717.md?page=3)