But the irony - and the point - is that they didn’t really know the context of the situation, because they didn’t know that the secret was already revealed in the document Rorschach sent to the newspaper. All of the millions of deaths in New York, and the death of Rorschach, may have done nothing to prevent World War III. As soon as the truth is known, things may go back to the way they were, or even worse.
Moore does not actually carry the story this far, perhaps to leave us with the hope that all those people will not have died in vain. The point is the same whether the war happens or not - Ozymandis has committed a mass murder (and several other murders), and his actions cannot be justified by any hoped-for result.
I actually had never read Watchmen until about three years ago. I lucked out when I wandered into a local comic store and found out that they had just stumbled upon a whole box of the series that they had never sold (believe me, they’re that unorganized). Picked up the whole series, first editions, for cover.
[Hijack] Fenris, I’ve never read Ditko’s version of The Question, so I can’t compare the two–though if it was Ayn Randish I probably would’ve hated it–but Denny O’Neill’s version was (IMHO) one of DC’s best series of the '80s, right up there with Watchmen, Swamp Thing, Hellblazer and 'Mazing Man.
[/Hijack]
Nope, Doc splattered R real good, as testified by the pink snow around the point of explosion. The only person Doc talks to after 'sploding R is Ozymandias and he says something along the lines of “You needn’t worry about Rorschach, I have a feeling he won’t be telling anyone.” I’m sure someone with an accessable copy can supply the actual quote.
Dr. Rieux: The problem with O’Neil’s Question is that it was such an obscene undermining of a character Ditko felt strongly about. The Question (and Ditko’s followup (“I can’t get the rights back to The Question: I’ll simply copy him as closely as possible”) character Mr A ) came at a time when Ditko was a devout Ayn Rand follower (he may still be…I don’t know) and that was the whole reason for Ditko creating the character.
For O’Neil (who CANNOT write a hero who doesn’t ape his political views) to throw out the creator’s vision is (to me) extremely offensive. Even if you don’t like Ayn Rand’s views it certainly made for a point of view not often seen in comics and when the view defines the character…
Moore did a much better job of doing the Question with Roarschach, by taking the Question’s (under Ditko) Objectivist “There’s no such thing as grey, there’s only black and white”, “A means A” philosophy and cranking it up about 20 notches.
I read a comment from Ditko where he expressed disgust for O’Neil’s treatement of his character (Maybe in Amazing Heroes? The time would have been right.) I conceed that O’Neil’s Question might have been well written, and certainly he had a legal right to butcher the character, but the level of disrespect it showed for Ditko, his beliefs, and his creation was appalling, especilly since O’Neil was one of the ones at the forefront of the '80 “creator’s rights” movement. O’Neil would have done better to create a new hero to spout his zen philosophy and give the Question a book too. Frankly, a meeting between the Real Question and O’Neil’s Question would have been fascinating…as long as it WASN’T written by O’Neil :rolleyes:
Asylum
I got all the original issues at cover-price too. When they came out. (God I feel old!)
Cisco
I was using the “prophecy” and “psychic powers” stuff as hyperbole. However, if it offends you, I apologize and retract.
I still don’t think that the existance of an attack on New York and a war in Afghanistan are sufficient to call it a parallel any more than I consider the fact that men wear shoes in the Watchmen and men wear shoes in the real world are a parallel, but to each their own. Sorry again about the overstatement.
If you look carefully at three seperate moments in the series:
[ul][li]When Rorschach finds the hidden closet with the Comedian’s gear[/li][li] When Rorschach finds Moloch with a bullet hole in his forehead, and[/li][li]When Rorschach realizes what kind of bone the German Shepherds are fighting over[/ul][/li]
…the black-and-white pattern on his mask is identical. It must be his “surprised” expresion. He also has a vaguely question-mark-like pattern on his mask in one frame when he is being arrested by the cops and asking himself who has set him up.
I have the script that Sam Hamm did of Watchmen. Not bad. Obviously, Hamm recycled some of the ideas he had for Batman, particularly his distaste for street mimes (e.g. the Joker’s gang disguised as mimes = Rorschach’s interrogation of Moloch: "Two things I don’t like. Street mimes. Users of recreational drugs.) It pretty eliminated the whole Minuteman backstory, and had the modern heroes in a group called the Watchmen.
[Spoiler] The story starts during the Bicentennial, when the Watchmen attempt to rescue of hostages taken by terrorists in the Statue of Liberty. It goes back, with Captain Metropolis and several hostages dead and the statue destroyed. In the wake of this, the Keene Act is passed, banning all masked crimefighters (except those working for the government).
Ten years later, Edward Blake is killed after investigating the disappearance of a number of government scientists specializing in quantum theory. Also, several of Dr. Manhattan’s old and present acquaintances, including Silk Spectre, are found to have cancer. Dr. M. goes to Mars. In the midst of the investigation, Rorschach is framed and sent to prison. Nite Owl and SS bust Rorschach out. Dr. M. takes SS to Mars, where he reveals that it is not in his future to cure SS. She pleads with him to do it anyway. He relents, sacrificing his ability to see future events.
Nite Owl and Rorschach figure out Ozymandias is behind this and fly to Antartica. He subdues them and tells him his plan; to open a minute hole in time and kill Jon Osterman before he becomes Dr. Manhattan. He has figured out that it is Dr. M’s existence that has thrown the world out of kilter. Eliminating him will ensure the world’s survival.
Dr. M and SS arrive. Ozy tries to beat Dr. M but fails. Dr. M kills Ozy, but seeing his plan, decides he is right. He tears open the hole in space-time and and shields Jon Osterman from the particle cannons, excising his own existence. Nite Owl, Silk Spectre and Rorschach find themselves in “our” world, bewildered.
[/spoiler]
Frankly, I like this plotline better than the “Architects of Fear” rehash. But that’s just me.
I have the script that Sam Hamm did of Watchmen. Not bad. Obviously, Hamm recycled some of the ideas he had for Batman, particularly his distaste for street mimes (e.g. the Joker’s gang disguised as mimes = Rorschach’s interrogation of Moloch: "Two things I don’t like. Street mimes. Users of recreational drugs.) It pretty eliminated the whole Minuteman backstory, and had the modern heroes in a group called the Watchmen.
[Spoiler] The story starts during the Bicentennial, when the Watchmen attempt to rescue of hostages taken by terrorists in the Statue of Liberty. It goes back, with Captain Metropolis and several hostages dead and the statue destroyed. In the wake of this, the Keene Act is passed, banning all masked crimefighters (except those working for the government).
Ten years later, Edward Blake is killed after investigating the disappearance of a number of government scientists specializing in quantum theory. Also, several of Dr. Manhattan’s old and present acquaintances, including Silk Spectre, are found to have cancer. Dr. M. goes to Mars. In the midst of the investigation, Rorschach is framed and sent to prison. Nite Owl and SS bust Rorschach out. Dr. M. takes SS to Mars, where he reveals that it is not in his future to cure SS. She pleads with him to do it anyway. He relents, sacrificing his ability to see future events.
Nite Owl and Rorschach figure out Ozymandias is behind this and fly to Antartica. He subdues them and tells him his plan; to open a minute hole in time and kill Jon Osterman before he becomes Dr. Manhattan. He has figured out that it is Dr. M’s existence that has thrown the world out of kilter. Eliminating him will ensure the world’s survival.
Dr. M and SS arrive. Ozy tries to beat Dr. M but fails. Dr. M kills Ozy, but seeing his plan, decides he is right. He tears open the hole in space-time and and shields Jon Osterman from the particle cannons, excising his own existence. Nite Owl, Silk Spectre and Rorschach find themselves in “our” world, bewildered.
[/spoiler]
Frankly, I like this plotline better than the “Architects of Fear” rehash. But that’s just me.
I read Watchmen a long time ago and don’t have a copy handy.
I seem to recall Alan Moore saying that this was his take on the Superhero genre. I think Frank Miller said that “Watchmen” was the funeral and “Dark Knight” was the brass band. (Miller was surprised when the latter was treated as a rejuvenation of the genre.)
From what I understand, the “regular citizenry” are just getting fed up with the whole costumed hero thing and so naturally they go out rioting, thereby causing the heros to go and beat their heads in. Apparently, the government thought this would be a permanent sort of thing, the riots that is, so they passed legislation making costumed heros illegal, with the exceptions being Dr. Manhattan, (How could you stop him?) and The Comedian, who fit in with the gov’s policies, especially since Nixon was President. All the others retired except for Rorschach, which actually gives you an idea of where his head is at.
It wasn’t just the rioting; there was a nationwide police strike in protest of government tolerance of vigilantes. This let the riots go unchallenged (except by the vigs themselves) and was resolved by congressional action.
That’s what I thought, but considering how there were only a handful of vigilantes and with one exception none of them had super powers it doesn’t strike me as something that would cause police nationwide to go on strike. And if there were actual costumed vigilantes I imagine that a decent chunk of the population would actually support their activities, and if even if the overwhelming majority didn’t I could see them holding protests, not riots. That’s the one part of the book I never understood. But this is a minor nitpick of an otherwise phenomenal book.
Asylum: I think I will go back and read the Watchmen, but I would imagine the issue with the vigilantes was the straw that broke the camel’s back. Remember, the meeting of the Watchmen where Captain Metropolis outlines all the problems the country faces, and the Comedian breaks it up by saying, in essence, “You guys are full of shit?”
Americans were raising all sorts of hell in the late '60’s and early '70’s, and costumed vigilantes would have been just one more thing in the Watchmen alternate reality. I also think costumed vigilantes would have been more than a minor issue as their operations involve questions of civil liberties, police effectiveness (remember, the police hated Rorshach partially because he had been very critical of them), and the fact that Moore’s super-heroes had a penchant for brutal, and even fatal violence (Rorshach throwing that one villain down an airshaft, Dr. Manhattan blowing that crook’s head off, Hollis Mason’s comments about the brutality of Hooded Justice’s retribution against some crooks, Dan and Laurie beating the hell out of that gang, Rorshach and Nite Owl using Gestapo tactics to get information, the jailbreak, etc., etc.)
Actually Rorschach only killed two people: 1) The guy who kidnapped the kid and then killed her & fed her to hid german Shepards. Rorschach handcuffed him, then burned him alive. (The killing of the dogs was the act that supposed was the actual “birth of Rorschach.” 2) The multiple rapist that Rorschach killed & dumped in front of police headquarters as his response to the Keene Act being passed.
I’ve read it many times; it’s second only to “V for Vendetta” (also written by Moore) among my comic favorites. I saw aspects of the Batman character split into three of the characters: Second Nite Owl as the gadget geek, Rorshach as the scary creature of the night, Ozymandius as the millionaire superb athlete/hand to hand martial artist, complete with the trip as a young man to find himself in the east (though for Batman it was the far east, and Ozy the middle east).
I like the ending for it’s emulation of the surprise denoument cliche in movies, but with more ambiguity. You know, the one where the bugs have all been killed, but the final shot shows one last egg about to hatch? Or some indication that the killer might not be, or isn’t dead? But here it’s different, as it raises just the small possibility that everything might be undone. It’s one more comment on the uncertainty of the future.
I had posted a thread a few months ago, not about the content of series (I had assumed someone already had; apparently I was wrong), but about the collectibility/prices of the comics themselves. I don’t collect comics - I collect books, but wanted a collectible version of the Watchmen as a “representative” of the comics genre in my collection (I also have a book version of "Frank Miller’s Batman, with The Dark Night Returns, Batman: Year One, etc…). I was surprised in doing a little digging to find that the actual comic book issues of the Watchmen only go for $10 or so apiece. The collectible version is a hardback from DC/Graphitti, with some extra stuff about Carlton comics and the writing of the series - it goes for $150 (okay, the twelve issues of the comics would total out to $120 or so, but I am surprised they would’ve been less than the hardcover…).
I asked Fenris and other comic collectors about it and they said it had to do with the sheer number of copies printed of the comics…
As for the series itself - wow. I see few parallels with 9/11 other than an attack on NY. The comments of others re: Watchmen’s attack apparently being extra-terrestrial vs. terrorist, and a few other observations are key differences. I also agree with the basic observations about the amazing attention to detail.
I see the themes of the book being: the future is unknowable, even to those who are all powerful, and the ends can’t justify the means, since the implications of the ends are unknowable, and the means can change the value of the ends. There is, however, honor in defining your “code of honor” and living a life within that code - the means becoming the ends, if you will.
The fact that this series prompts such good discussion is evidence of quality - I hold it up to non-comcs readers as an example of a graphic novel that stands as literature.
