# Has anything in the Bible been proven false? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 20, 2005, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anything-in-the-bible-been-proven-false/309068 "2005-06-20T16:18:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anything-in-the-bible-been-proven-false/309068/21 "2005-06-20T18:32:55Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Revtim: > > It’s because of it. > > Obviously, there are no known cud-chewers which do not have genuine split hooves outside of the camel family, so the general answer to “what are the Shafan and Arneves” falls into three categories: > > 1. Don’t know…must have been an animal known to the ancients that went extinct or we’re unfamiliar with > 2. Not genuine cud-chewers (ruminants) but animals that chew their food twice in some other way. This is what leads to the common translation of hare or rabbit for “Arneves” (and in fact in modern Israeli Hebrew that’s the accepted word for hare/rabbit), and to the various attempts to identify “Shafan” with rock badger, hyrax, coney, and possibly other species. > 3. Sub-species of camel - some have offered that one of them refers to the llama, for example. > > Bottom line, though, is we just can’t say for certain what species those Hebrew animal names refer to, and whatever translations exist - even from Judaic sources - are merely guesses. or 4) It meant rabbits and coneys, and is simply wrong. If every time something that looks wrong comes up it’s explained away as a mistranslation or misprint or whatever, then one can never actually recognize a true error when if one exists. If something was actually wrong in the Bible, how would you actually recognize that and not simply say “The translation must be wrong, we don’t know what it actually meant?” And if there is no logical way to acknowledge a true error because of this, then what’s the point of trying to logically defend any error with that logic? It’s like trying to use a metal detector that’s turned off. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anything-in-the-bible-been-proven-false/309068/22 "2005-06-20T18:34:07Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > The author here clearly believes that the blue color of the sky is actually “water” — as though there were a second sea in the sky and a huge dome of glass beneath it, keeping it from crashing down on us. > > That would be incorrect. “Clearly”? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Walton\_Firm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/45deac/32.png) [@Walton\_Firm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walton_Firm)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anything-in-the-bible-been-proven-false/309068/23 "2005-06-20T18:48:02Z")
> [@me](#): > > You are undoubtedly thinking of 2 Chronicles 4:2, in which a molten sea is constructed with a diameter of ten cubits and a circumference of thirty cubits. > [@DrDeth](#): > > 1Kings7:23 “And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to another… and a line of 30 cubits did encompass it round about”. What we can learn from this is that a) molten seas of these particular dimensions were apparently quite popular in Biblical times, and b) “undoubtedly” is a dangerous word to use. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anything-in-the-bible-been-proven-false/309068/24 "2005-06-20T19:06:13Z")
How about the [Skeptic’s Annotated Bible](http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/science/long.html), and its page on Science and History? Some key ones: - The whole “firmament” thing - All animals were originally herbivorous - A 450-foot long wooden ark - The whole Jews-as-slaves-in-Egypt thing - Making the “Sun stand still” - Moving the Sun backwards ten degrees - Pillars of the Earth - Four corners of the Earth - The Moon has light of its own, independent of the Sun - Stars falling from the sky Now many people would claim that these things are simply symbolic, but there’s no indication in the Bible to tell you which stuff is symbolic and which are literal. This is the ultimate cop-out for anyone who says that everything in the Bible is literally true - they are defining it that way - if it’s not literally true, it must have been symbolic. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anything-in-the-bible-been-proven-false/309068/25 "2005-06-20T19:14:34Z")
If the story of Noah is not allegory, it’s physically impossible. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anything-in-the-bible-been-proven-false/309068/26 "2005-06-20T19:24:20Z")
> [@Walton Firm](#): > > What we can learn from this is that a) molten seas of these particular dimensions were apparently quite popular in Biblical times, and b) “undoubtedly” is a dangerous word to use. No, those are referring to the same “sea”. Much of Chronicles recapitulates earlier books. Thus, you were also correct. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anything-in-the-bible-been-proven-false/309068/27 "2005-06-20T19:29:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit”: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. > John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished”: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. So what were Jesus’ final words? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anything-in-the-bible-been-proven-false/309068/28 "2005-06-20T19:55:49Z")
Revtim: > [@](#): > > or > 4) It meant rabbits and coneys, and is simply wrong. > > If every time something that looks wrong comes up it’s explained away as a mistranslation or misprint or whatever, then one can never actually recognize a true error when if one exists. Of course. However, many words pervade the Bible to an extent that contextual cues would put to the lie any attempt to call the accepted translation erroneous. Other words are elucidated by traditional commentary which would dispute claims of mistranslation. “Shafan” and “Arneves” only appear in Scripture in this exact context - the only clues to what they are are that they are land animals which chew cud but do not have split hooves. In fact, many species name translations have become obscure and lost over time, which is why Ashkenazic Jews do not eat any locusts, and stick to eating only birds that have a solid tradition of being recognized as Kosher. Heck, the traditional commentaries are even less helpful in this regard than in most. Talmudic law says that the presence of a type of teeth called “Nivim” indicates that the animal does not chew its cud. But we’re not even certain what is meant by “Nivim”! I’m not denying that “translation uncertainty” could theoretically be used as a cover for genuine error. But theres plenty that we genuinely don’t know about what’s meant by specific words. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2005, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anything-in-the-bible-been-proven-false/309068/29 "2005-06-20T22:13:51Z")
The problem with this kind of question is that almost nothing can be proven or disproven beyond a doubt to someone who is stongly enough disinclined to believe the contrary. How many times have you seen the mother of the accused say at the end of the trial, “Well, the prosecution made a pretty good case, so, yes, I guess my little Timmy really did rape and kill that poor girl.” Not often I would guess. There are some things that certain people invest so much of themselves that anything that contradicts their notions rattles them to the core. It’s hard to accept that a child that you raised from diapers to adulthood turned out to be a scumbag, and it’s hard toaccept that the religion that you are basing your salvation on may be flawed. You’re probably not going to convince this person that anything in the Bible has been proven false, but perhaps you can show him that there are other writings that can’t be proven false either - the Beatles music for example. You’re allowed to use the same tortured logic to"prove" the Beatles music as he uses in “proving” the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anything-in-the-bible-been-proven-false/309068/30 "2005-06-21T01:00:40Z")
Quite a few supposed “Bible facts” have been proven either wrong or highly improbable to the point of error. The “firmament above the waters” taken as something literal (whatever was being referenced by it) and not metaphor is one good example; another is the genealogy that purports to give the descent of nations from Noah’s three sons. Another incident is the Sun standing still at Joshua’s command during the battle of Jericho (which appears to have been a deserted ruin during the probable range of time for the invasion of Canaan, anyway). None of these, however, affect the basic message of the Bible, if one allows that it was not divinely dictated but rather the work of a large number of writers, many of whom were prey to the misconceptions of their time. A few comments on previous answers: there seems to be some fairly good evidence that the alleged “coney” is in fact the hyrax, which does have multiple (hence “divided”) hooves on its little toesies, and does something that will pass for chewing the cud even though not technically a rumannt. Jonah was alleged to have been swallowed by “a great fish”; “whale” is never mentioned in the book, and is a bit of folklore attached to it. And in any case, the likelihood is that the Book of Jonah is the reduction into prose of a group of folklore stories dealing with the reluctant prophet, making the point of the universality of God’s lovingkindness. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anything-in-the-bible-been-proven-false/309068/31 "2005-06-21T01:10:52Z")
In one of the many thousands of evolution threads, someone (their name escapes me now), pointed out an interesting consequence of the literal interpretation of the creation story. The point was something like this: 1. All life currently on earth was created all at the same time. 2. Nothing has changed since then. 3. There are many organisms/parasites which can only live/reproduce in humans. The conclusion was that Adam and/or Eve had to be incredibly clapped-up. Not quite a true/false thing, but you gotta admit it does give one pause. Sorry, but I really don’t want to slog through several thousand posts to find the original one. Hopefully some kind doper will give credit where credit is due. Bonus question: Can anyone offer an example of these cooties? ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anything-in-the-bible-been-proven-false/309068/32 "2005-06-21T01:40:56Z")
> [@](#): > > 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. > > 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. > 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, > 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. > 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. I always thought it was a good trick to have a “day” before there was a sun. Obviously Physics worked differently back then. **El Zagna** is right about “proving” the Bible false. You can prove nothing to a true skeptic. The Bible is clearly a mix of history, allegory, parable, interpretation and yes, even some truth. I call it “intentional ignorance” that “believers” do not accept that the Bible was written by imperfect humans. However good their inspiration and intention, the writers clearly got it dead wrong on many points. Peace Only through Liberty rwjefferson ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anything-in-the-bible-been-proven-false/309068/33 "2005-06-21T01:48:32Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. > > 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. > > I always thought it was a good trick to have a “day” before there was a sun. Obviously Physics worked differently back then. You forget Gen1:2, where there was already darkness, and Gen1:3 with the famous “And God said, let there be light; and there was light.” So in other words, God created Light before He created the Sun.Then he _named_ the Light “Day”. That presents no logical problems unless you think that no Light existed anywhere in the Universe before the Sun. I’d image the “Big Bang” to be rather bright, and that was before Sol was born. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anything-in-the-bible-been-proven-false/309068/34 "2005-06-21T02:07:41Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > 1. Sub-species of camel - some have offered that one of them refers to the llama, for example. I’d be impressed by a biblical Hebrew word that meant llama. Did they have words for tomato and tobacco, too? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anything-in-the-bible-been-proven-false/309068/35 "2005-06-21T02:10:43Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > Did they have words for tomato and tobacco, too? And tomacco! ---
**Author:** ![D505](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@D505](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D505)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anything-in-the-bible-been-proven-false/309068/36 "2005-06-21T03:07:24Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I find it hard to believe in the Bible’s views on inheritance of ringstraked cattle, too. And of honeybees building a hive in a lion’s carcass. Sorry to go back to an old post, but is it really that odd that honeybees might build a nest in the carcass of a lion? I assume if the lion is a runny, maggotty mess they would avoid it, but maybe a dessicated lion ribcage or skull covered with some bits of skin wouldn’t make too bad of a bee-home. (“Ringstraked cattle”? Do you use that word a lot? 😃 I don’t read KJV so I had to guess what that meant based on the word “inheritance” before it. Learn something new…) -d ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anything-in-the-bible-been-proven-false/309068/37 "2005-06-21T03:39:31Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > I’d be impressed by a biblical Hebrew word that meant llama. Did they have words for tomato and tobacco, too? I was going to say, this is starting to sound like the Book of Amaments. I do wonder how valid it is to introduce the possible original texts, since the OP deals with someone who obviously subscribes to the “If English was good enough Jesus, then it’s good enough for me,” school of thought. Fundamentalists seem to be making the claim that the _King James_ Bible is the unerrant word of god. If that is the case, then they are stuck with coneys chewing cud. And that means no, it’s not good enough that they chew the poop. It has to be cud. God would know the difference. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anything-in-the-bible-been-proven-false/309068/38 "2005-06-21T03:43:57Z")
> [@D505](#): > > Sorry to go back to an old post, but is it really that odd that honeybees might build a nest in the carcass of a lion? I assume if the lion is a runny, maggotty mess they would avoid it, but maybe a dessicated lion ribcage or skull covered with some bits of skin wouldn’t make too bad of a bee-home But would you still call that a “carcass?” Crap, don’t have my Bibles handy . . . anyone have the Hebrew for “carcass” in that passage? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anything-in-the-bible-been-proven-false/309068/39 "2005-06-21T04:00:03Z")
OK, here’s some stuff that’s neither of cosmic significance nor nitpicking, but essential to the historical narrative: Based on the conspicuous absence of archaelogical evidence that should be there, and the presence of incompatible evidence, we can be fairly certain that Abraham never came up out of Ur of the Chaldees; there was never any sizable Hebrew presence in, enslavement in, or Exodus from Egypt, nor any wars to conquer Canaan – to the contrary, the Hebrews were simply an indigenous people of the territory; there was a House of David, but it only ruled the territory immediately around Jerusalem, and there never was any great united kingdom of Israel and Judah. All of the above was most likely fabricated by Israelite priests fleeing the Assyrian conquest of Israel and finding refuge in the Judahite court of King Josiah, who needed a grandiose national myth to bolster his monotheistic religious reformation. See _The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology’s New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts_ (Free Press, 2001), by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman ([http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684869136/qid=1119326372/sr=8-1/ref=pd\_csp\_1/103-9742845-0850260?v=glance&s=books&n=507846](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684869136/qid=1119326372/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/103-9742845-0850260?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)). See also this thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=183957](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=183957) And the following reviews: [http://www.worldagesarchive.com/Reference\_Links/False\_Testament\_(Harpers).htm](http://www.worldagesarchive.com/Reference_Links/False_Testament_(Harpers).htm) [http://www.rense.com/general18/bible.htm](http://www.rense.com/general18/bible.htm) [http://www.humanistsofutah.org/2003/BibleUnearthed-BookReview\_Mar-03.html](http://www.humanistsofutah.org/2003/BibleUnearthed-BookReview_Mar-03.html) [http://www.secweb.org/bookstore/bookdetail.asp?BookID=651](http://www.secweb.org/bookstore/bookdetail.asp?BookID=651) [http://www.bibleinterp.com/commentary/Finkelstein\_Silberman022001.htm](http://www.bibleinterp.com/commentary/Finkelstein_Silberman022001.htm) ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2005, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anything-in-the-bible-been-proven-false/309068/40 "2005-06-21T04:01:35Z")
matt\_mcl: > [@](#): > > I’d be impressed by a biblical Hebrew word that meant llama. Did they have words for tomato and tobacco, too? It would be impressive, but it’s impossible to say if it meant that. It’s just a speculation thrown out there by modern Jewish researchers, but doesn’t remotely rise above that level. Is there a Biblical Hebrew word for tomato or tobacco? As an Orthodox Jew, it is my belief that word construction in “the Holy Language” is not merely arbitrary assignment of sounds to objects, but somehow the letters of the word, in their essential symbolism, reflect the character of the object in question. That’s why (according to Jewish tradition) the Bible makes a big deal of Adam giving names to all the animals - it was an exercise of his intelligence to recognize the essential nature of each beast. As such, I imagine (though can never prove) that there would indeed be some ideal word construct for tomatoes, tobacco, ring-tailed lemurs and duck-billed platypuses. But I must re-iterate: no one will say in any way more than speculative that one of those mystery animals is a llama. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anything-in-the-bible-been-proven-false/309068.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anything-in-the-bible-been-proven-false/309068.md?page=3)