# Has Battery Capacity Reached It's Maximum? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 1, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-battery-capacity-reached-its-maximum/636409 "2012-10-01T17:31:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-battery-capacity-reached-its-maximum/636409/1 "2012-10-01T17:31:08Z")
I’m thinking of batteries for electricity powered automobiles firstly, but also all batteries in general. Is there any possibility of say, doubling the output of what we now have? ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-battery-capacity-reached-its-maximum/636409/2 "2012-10-01T17:57:27Z")
There’s no big theoretical reason why batteries can’t have more capacity per weight or volume, at a reasonable cost (and reasonable charging time and reasonable length of life and reasonable ability to hold charge over time). But we don’t know how to do it, yet, so it’s kind of hard to definitively say its possible. ---
**Author:** ![rann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@rann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rann)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-battery-capacity-reached-its-maximum/636409/3 "2012-10-01T18:39:18Z")
Depends on what type of battery is being used. NiCad batteries have been around for a long time and have been replaced by nickel-metal hydride batteries. there’s also the li-po batteries. So, they’re inventing new types of batteries all the time. It is possible to use a fuel cell and generate electric power. They are trying to come up with basically a tank that acts like a sponge and holds more hydrogen than the tank normally could. But, I don’t think electric cars will be the norm anytime soon or if ever. Regardless of what some want, battery companies, governments, etc., these cars are costly. Some people would have to upgrade their home’s electric wiring to support charging. What about people in large apartment buildings? Do owners upgrade parking garages and install meters to measure who’s drawing what and how much electricty? What happens when you need to replace the batteries? What about if a person’s in an accident with these batteries being hit? ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-battery-capacity-reached-its-maximum/636409/4 "2012-10-01T18:45:59Z")
_its_ maximum Sorry, but I’m close to to going on a pointless rage. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-battery-capacity-reached-its-maximum/636409/5 "2012-10-01T18:51:39Z")
There are battery technologies with much higher capacity than what we currently use. The lithium air batteries. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium%E2%80%93air\_battery](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium%E2%80%93air_battery) [http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386\_3-57417588-76/ibm-speeds-push-for-500-mile-ev-battery/](http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57417588-76/ibm-speeds-push-for-500-mile-ev-battery/) The question that comes to mind is why bother as more and more electricity in the United States is produced by Natural Gas? It seems to make more sense to power cars directly using compressed natural gas. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural\_gas\_vehicle#CNG\_as\_an\_auto\_fuel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_vehicle#CNG_as_an_auto_fuel) ---
**Author:** ![Michael63129](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3da27b/32.png) [@Michael63129](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael63129)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-battery-capacity-reached-its-maximum/636409/6 "2012-10-01T18:59:14Z")
There’s always stories like [this](http://techcrunch.com/2011/11/14/battery-breakthrough-could-improve-capacity-and-reduce-charge-time-by-a-factor-of-ten-each/), which in this case claims an order of magnitude improvement in battery capacity and charge time. Also, as for batteries in electric vehicles, I see people saying that battery lifetime is the biggest drawback (or one of), since nobody wants to have to pay $10,000+ every few years for a new battery. However, when properly used, they can last for a very long time, [well over 100,000 miles with little degradation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_battery#Lifespan), although this was for NiMH batteries; lithium-ion batteries have problems with degradation (even when not used, much more so than other battery technologies), although they all degrade to some degree when charged/discharged and stored. On the other hand, nickel-iron batteries can apparently last for over a century, even with a lot of abuse, but have poor capacity and charge retention. ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-battery-capacity-reached-its-maximum/636409/7 "2012-10-01T19:13:56Z")
In addition to batteries, there is work being done with capacitors that make them more battery like, but with faster charge times. Check out [supercapacitors/electric double-layer capacitors.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_double-layer_capacitor) While they currently don’t have the energy density of a Ni-Cad battery, there have been a lot of improvements in the last few years. Supercaps are also being used together with a battery, to give better performance and life. ---
**Author:** ![Michael63129](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3da27b/32.png) [@Michael63129](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael63129)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-battery-capacity-reached-its-maximum/636409/8 "2012-10-01T19:19:17Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > The question that comes to mind is why bother as more and more electricity in the United States is produced by Natural Gas? It seems to make more sense to power cars directly using compressed natural gas. > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural\_gas\_vehicle#CNG\_as\_an\_auto\_fuel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_vehicle#CNG_as_an_auto_fuel) Natural gas is a dead-end technology, being a fossil fuel and all ([and not any better than oil, or even coal](http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2011/09/09/315845/natural-gas-switching-from-coal-to-gas-increases-warming-for-decades/)); the main incentive for electric cars is that they can run off of renewable energy, which is mainly electric (unless you count ethanol, but nobody would do that, at least the way it is currently produced in the U.S.). Plus natural gas won’t remain so cheap for long if it becomes the dominant energy source (electricity is only a small part of the U.S.'s energy consumption, especially when you factor in conversion efficiencies from natural gas, coal, etc); according to [this source](http://www.eesi.org/fossil_fuels), natural gas was responsible for 22% of U.S. energy in 2010 - so we would have to increase production nearly fivefold. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-battery-capacity-reached-its-maximum/636409/9 "2012-10-01T19:24:03Z")
One big problem is that many of the newer types of batteries use exotic rare earth elements and other such things that are probably always going to be rather expensive. The idea that those batteries will ever be cheap is, to be kind, a rather questionable assumption. ---
**Author:** ![Michael63129](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3da27b/32.png) [@Michael63129](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael63129)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-battery-capacity-reached-its-maximum/636409/10 "2012-10-01T19:29:36Z")
> [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](#): > > In addition to batteries, there is work being done with capacitors that make them more battery like, but with faster charge times. Check out [supercapacitors/electric double-layer capacitors.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_double-layer_capacitor) While they currently don’t have the energy density of a Ni-Cad battery, there have been a lot of improvements in the last few years. Supercaps are also being used together with a battery, to give better performance and life. I doubt capacitors will ever replace batteries but instead be used to supplement them; to realize how much capacitance you need, [howstuffworks](http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/capacitor2.htm) says a regular AA battery is equivalent to about 10,000 farads of capacitance, which is a lot even when you consider that their “size of a can of tuna per farad” is hopelessly outdated (heck, it is pretty common to find 1 farad capacitors for memory backup in 20+ year old electronics that are maybe an inch long and half as wide, although these are only 2.5-5 volts), but even [these capacitors](http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/01/ioxus-20100125.html) (up to 5,000 farads) store only 5 watt-hours of energy and weigh nearly a kilogram (6 Wh per kg or liter). And are only 2.7 volts, so you’d need many of them to get reasonable voltages (several hundred volts). However, they do have a very low internal resistance (fraction of a milliohm, enabling kiloamp discharge currents) and can output 10 kW of peak power, far better than any similar sized battery. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-battery-capacity-reached-its-maximum/636409/11 "2012-10-02T00:19:18Z")
On the other hand, capacitor technology has been advancing much more quickly than battery technology, nowadays. If that trend continues for another few decades, it’s not hard to imagine capacitors eventually overtaking batteries. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-battery-capacity-reached-its-maximum/636409/12 "2012-10-02T00:56:01Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > The question that comes to mind is why bother as more and more electricity in the United States is produced by Natural Gas? It seems to make more sense to power cars directly using compressed natural gas. > [@Michael63129](#): > > Natural gas is a dead-end technology, being a fossil fuel and all ([and not any better than oil, or even coal](http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2011/09/09/315845/natural-gas-switching-from-coal-to-gas-increases-warming-for-decades/)); the main incentive for electric cars is that they can run off of renewable energy, which is mainly electric (unless you count ethanol, but nobody would do that, at least the way it is currently produced in the U.S.). Plus natural gas won’t remain so cheap for long if it becomes the dominant energy source (electricity is only a small part of the U.S.'s energy consumption, especially when you factor in conversion efficiencies from natural gas, coal, etc); according to [this source](http://www.eesi.org/fossil_fuels), natural gas was responsible for 22% of U.S. energy in 2010 - so we would have to increase production nearly fivefold. Also, one advantage of electric is that it doesn’t matter to the battery where the electricity comes from. So we aren’t locking ourselves into dependency on a single energy source; the electricity can come from fossil fuel, nuclear, geothermal, fusion, or something we haven’t thought of yet. If we switched to (for example) natural gas powered cars and natural gas became uneconomical, we’d have to switch over our whole fleet of cars _again_ to something else; if cars were powered by electricity and some new power source becomes economical, we can build new power plants piecemeal instead of having to build a whole new infrastructure to support a whole new fleet of new-technology cars. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-battery-capacity-reached-its-maximum/636409/13 "2012-10-02T05:50:06Z")
> [@Michael63129](#): > > Natural gas is a dead-end technology, being a fossil fuel and all ([and not any better than oil, or even coal](http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2011/09/09/315845/natural-gas-switching-from-coal-to-gas-increases-warming-for-decades/)); the main incentive for electric cars is that they can run off of renewable energy, which is mainly electric (unless you count ethanol, but nobody would do that, at least the way it is currently produced in the U.S.). Plus natural gas won’t remain so cheap for long if it becomes the dominant energy source (electricity is only a small part of the U.S.'s energy consumption, especially when you factor in conversion efficiencies from natural gas, coal, etc); according to [this source](http://www.eesi.org/fossil_fuels), natural gas was responsible for 22% of U.S. energy in 2010 - so we would have to increase production nearly fivefold. The fact that you quote a propaganda rag like thinkprogress proves you are totally ignorant on this topic. You might as well quote OPEC press releases. The fact is that fracting has reduced the production of CO2 per capita in the US to the lowest level since the Kennedy administration. I will admit that Natural gas isn’t a permanent solution, but it will last until we can transition to breeder reactors in the 22nd century. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-battery-capacity-reached-its-maximum/636409/14 "2012-10-02T06:32:18Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Also, one advantage of electric is that it doesn’t matter to the battery where the electricity comes from. So we aren’t locking ourselves into dependency on a single energy source; the electricity can come from fossil fuel, nuclear, geothermal, fusion, or something we haven’t thought of yet. If we switched to (for example) natural gas powered cars and natural gas became uneconomical, we’d have to switch over our whole fleet of cars _again_ to something else; if cars were powered by electricity and some new power source becomes economical, we can build new power plants piecemeal instead of having to build a whole new infrastructure to support a whole new fleet of new-technology cars. There are alternatives to batteries if we have plentiful sources of electricity. You can use the electricity to produce ammonia and use that for fuel. An efficient Ammonia burning system won’t produce any CO2. Efficient batteries would be nice, but not essential. With enough nuclear power to produce the electricity, Ammonia can be produced from nuclear power plants during off peak times, so nuclear power plants can always run at full capacity. There are also proposals to use wind turbines to produce Ammonia instead of trying to put the electricity onto the power grid. You actually have your order backwards. Most of our cars and trucks get replaced every 20 years. Modern power plants are designed to last a century. Try buying leaded gas if you have an old car. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-battery-capacity-reached-its-maximum/636409/15 "2012-10-02T10:31:44Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > On the other hand, capacitor technology has been advancing much more quickly than battery technology, nowadays. If that trend continues for another few decades, it’s not hard to imagine capacitors eventually overtaking batteries. My problem with capacitors is that the energy is physically constrained rather then chemically constrained. In a car, a healthy 300-400 mile range requires an enormous amount of energy to be stored. Store it chemically, an accident may spill those chemicals, which may or may not release the stored energy, which will be controlled by the chemical reaction speed. Store it physically, an accident may release all the energy at once. ---
**Author:** ![Bremidon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac91a4/32.png) [@Bremidon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bremidon)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-battery-capacity-reached-its-maximum/636409/16 "2012-10-02T11:32:19Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > One big problem is that many of the newer types of batteries use exotic rare earth elements and other such things that are probably always going to be rather expensive. The idea that those batteries will ever be cheap is, to be kind, a rather questionable assumption. Not necessarily. This is pretty much _the_ economic reason for going out to space and mining asteroids. The same stuff that’s pretty hard to get here on Earth is fairly easy to get from an asteroid _if_ we can figure out a) how to get there, b) how to drill in microgravity, and c) how to get it back to Earth. One smallish asteroid contains pretty much the same amount of precious metals that humanity has managed in its entire history to dig out of the Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-battery-capacity-reached-its-maximum/636409/17 "2012-10-02T12:20:13Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > You actually have your order backwards. Most of our cars and trucks get replaced every 20 years. But not all at once, and not all with the same new technology, and most alternate fuels would also require a whole new infrastructure on top of that. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-battery-capacity-reached-its-maximum/636409/18 "2012-10-02T17:44:16Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But not all at once, and not all with the same new technology, and most alternate fuels would also require a whole new infrastructure on top of that. So what? Fueling stations are already designed for three types of fuel. It is just a matter of adding a natural gas or ammonia pump and a tank. Most stations would just get rid of the premium fuel. Natural gas would be the easiest since there are more pipelines available and a lot of people would just fuel at home. Ammonia will be to handle the transition as we run out of fuels we can just pump out of the ground. No matter what we use for fuel, the cars in the future will be a lot lighter and more fuel efficient. Imagine something like the Aptera, but more so. I’m not saying that batteries are a bad idea, but we don’t have come up with super capacity batteries. ---
**Author:** ![Jake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-battery-capacity-reached-its-maximum/636409/19 "2012-10-02T18:11:27Z")
> [@yoyodyne](#): > > _its_ maximum > > Sorry, but I’m close to to going on a pointless rage. Its not good to go on a pointless rage… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![phreesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@phreesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phreesh)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-battery-capacity-reached-its-maximum/636409/20 "2012-10-02T18:24:32Z")
> [@Bremidon](#): > > One smallish asteroid contains pretty much the same amount of precious metals that humanity has managed in its entire history to dig out of the Earth. Wow. Really? That’s hard to believe. Why do they contain so much precious metals? I would have thought their composition would mirror that of the Earth, but on a smaller scale (and no liquid core). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-battery-capacity-reached-its-maximum/636409.md?page=2)