# Has Francis been doing a good job as Pope? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 27, 2023, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265 "2023-04-27T12:31:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/42 "2024-04-04T15:48:41Z")
Of course there’s politics, but the official line is that God uses the politics as a conduit for inspiration. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/43 "2024-04-04T21:54:29Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > They do have that Swiss Guard, and those guys have fancy knives, but the Pope always gets the credit. We just visited the Vatican, and I can confirm that the Swiss Guard also has uniforms that would scare away most people. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/44 "2024-04-04T22:11:10Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > Not to excuse him, but he only has so much wiggle room with what he can suggest to people as policy. He’s just the head, and the neck (the rest of the Church) can turn him as they like to some extent. He didn’t have to suggest that Ukraine stand down and surrender to a genocidal maniac. That was absolutely a choice, not a necessary one, and not a good one either. ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/45 "2024-04-05T03:42:54Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > He didn’t have to suggest that Ukraine stand down and surrender to a genocidal maniac. That was absolutely a choice, not a necessary one, and not a good one either. Here is the transcript. I think Pope Francis was calling for negotiations, but it could be read either way. > [@](#): > > Buccella: > > > Some people in Ukraine are calling for the courage of surrender, of the white flag. But others say that that would legitimize the strongest one. What do you think? > > Francis: > > > It is one interpretation, but I think that the stronger one is the one who sees the situation, who thinks of his people and has the courage of the white flag and negotiates. And today one can negotiate with the help of the world powers. They are there. The word “negotiate” is a courageous word. When you see that you have been defeated, that things are not going well — having the courage to negotiate. And you are ashamed, but if you continue like this, how many dead will there be then? And it will end up even worse. To negotiate on time, seeking a country that can act as a mediator. Today for example, with the war in Ukraine, there are many who want to act as mediators. Türkiye for example…. Do not be ashamed to negotiate before it gets worse. [link](https://www.osservatoreromano.va/en/news/2024-03/ing-011/the-courage-to-negotiate.html) ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/46 "2024-04-05T05:40:36Z")
A bit off topic, but the issue wasn’t the welfare of the widow; Onan was already married to her, so he was obligated to support her. The issue was that if Onan had a child with the widow, that child would have inherited Onan’s estate, whereas if he didn’t, the estate would revert to Onan. Anyway, nothing at all to do with masturbation. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/47 "2024-04-05T11:01:43Z")
> [@CaveMike](#): > > Here is the transcript. I think Pope Francis was calling for negotiations, but it could be read either way. Notice that he’s putting the _entire_ burden of initiating negotiations on the country that got invaded, and had several major cities utterly reduced to rubble? Notice he’s not asking _anything_ of the country responsible for this conflict? Look at this guy simping for Russia in other comments he’s made: > [@Pope Francis](#): > > “Generally, the cruelest are perhaps those who are of Russia but are not of the Russian tradition, such as the Chechens, the Buryats and so on.” He has no problem calling out bastards when he feels like it (especially when the bastards aren’t Catholics). But more than that, notice how careful he is to avoid any demands or condemnation of Russia, the country who mobilized and directs and pays the bastards. Notice that and don’t forget it. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/48 "2024-04-05T15:54:36Z")
Francis seems a decent and humble man. His ability to change an ancient institution is limited, even if he wanted to do that. I think he has been a progressive Pope, even if some of his views seem misguided or differ from my own. It is not realistic to believe all of his opinions would and should align with your opinions. You wear different hats, and it is unreasonable to judge anyone only by this standard. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/49 "2024-04-05T19:51:25Z")
He has much nicer hats than probably everyone here. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2024, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/50 "2024-04-06T20:51:51Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Notice that he’s putting the _entire_ burden of initiating negotiations on the country that got invaded, and had several major cities utterly reduced to rubble? That is not true. Francis also supersets same sex unions, and is against those who hate gays. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2024, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/51 "2024-04-06T23:00:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That is not true. Do you have a cite for when Francis ever asked Russia to back down, or offer negotiations, or surrender to Ukraine? Yes he’ll moan indistinctly about the horrors of war, yes he’ll use indirect language like “Ukraine has suffered horribly”. But when it comes to taking steps to end the war, he doesn’t specifically call out Putin, doesn’t ask Russia to go home, doesn’t challenge Russia to do anything at all. That’s a one way street - Ukraine is supposed to back down. Keep in mind Francis is asking Ukraine to give into Russia’s demands when Russia hasn’t even offered terms for negotiation. Kinda gives away the game! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2024, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/52 "2024-04-07T01:05:06Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Do you have a cite for when Francis ever asked Russia to back down, or offer negotiations, or surrender to Ukraine? [https://connect.icmc.net/what-has-pope-francis-said-about-ukraine/?gad\_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw5cOwBhCiARIsAJ5njuZjS0jeU5GIyShRfIm0QhjXpeG5RyWStUSwCqJNHugQN\_8XLlOf9wYaAm11EALw\_wcB](https://connect.icmc.net/what-has-pope-francis-said-about-ukraine/?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw5cOwBhCiARIsAJ5njuZjS0jeU5GIyShRfIm0QhjXpeG5RyWStUSwCqJNHugQN_8XLlOf9wYaAm11EALw_wcB) _Shortly after the invasion began, Pope Francis called for an end to the fighting. He proclaimed Ash Wednesday—March 2nd—[a Day of Prayer and Fasting for Peace in Ukraine](https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2022-02/pope-francis-appeal-angelus-peace-ukraine-wars-yemen-syria-ethio.html), and said that “those who wage war forget humanity: they do not start from the people; they do not look at the concrete life of the people, but put partisan interests and power in front of everything.”_ _Pope Francis continued to denounce individuals who fight wars, stating that “they rely on the diabolic and perverse logic of weapons which is the most distant from the will of God, and they distance themselves from the common people who want peace.”_ _As the conflict has progressed, Pope Francis’ messages have become more urgent and pointed, calling for a ceasefire and to let humanity and love resume._ _He has recently implicitly criticized Russian President Vladimir Putin, saying, “Once again, some potentate, sadly caught up in anachronistic claims of nationalist interests, is provoking and fomenting conflicts, whereas ordinary people sense the need to build a future that will either be shared, or not be at all.”_ ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2024, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/53 "2024-04-07T12:11:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > He has recently implicitly criticized This demonstrates exactly what I said. Francis does not call out Putin by name. Francis doesn’t explicitly call out Russia. The news article _assumes_ Francis is doing this, but he very obviously didn’t. Exactly as I said, you supplied an example of him doing his schtick of vague, indirect “war is bad, war should stop” kind of pearl-clutching claptrap. The man is a coward _at best_, but I think it’s more accurate to say that since the Russian Orthodox Church vocally and explicitly supports Putin and his war, Francis doesn’t want to call a lot of attention or conflict to that fact. He has no problem telling Ukraine specifically to surrender and back down, but you won’t hear him challenging Russia to do so. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2024, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/54 "2024-04-07T14:41:41Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > But he gets to wave his little fig leaf of “war is bad m’kay”, and maybe that’s as far as most of the RCC ever cares to consider the issue. What’s this wishy-washy stuff? What ever happened to the RCC of “[Kill them. The Lord knows those that are his own.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caedite_eos._Novit_enim_Dominus_qui_sunt_eius.)”? /s ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2024, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/55 "2024-04-07T16:26:37Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > that since the Russian Orthodox Church vocally and explicitly supports Putin and his war, Francis doesn’t want to call a lot of attention or conflict to that fact Why doesn’t Francis want to upset the Russian Orthodox Church? ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2024, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/56 "2024-04-07T16:29:45Z")
I’m not really well informed for that question, but I think that despite the centuries old schism, the Catholic and Orthodox churches still (or again) see each other as sister Churches, and one isn’t keen on pissing off the other. ETA: I just remembered an aspect of that relationship that may sound trivial for non Christians, but is very important for them: the Catholic and Orthodox churches are in communion, that means they regard the eucharist in the other church as valid. The Catholic Church _isn’t_ in communion with any Protestant church OTOH, so the ties between Catholic and Orthodox Christians are much stronger. ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2024, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/57 "2024-04-07T16:46:51Z")
Thanks, that’s a good example. ---
**Author:** ![Tatterdemalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2024, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/58 "2024-04-07T16:58:43Z")
If there was ever a case of a [just war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory#:~:text=The%20just%20war%20theory%20postulates,advocate%20of%20just%2Dwar%20theory.), the Ukranian defense against the Russians is it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2024, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/59 "2024-04-07T17:11:46Z")
Well, yes, but the Ukrainian Orthodox Church is of course against the invasion. As is the Ukrainian Catholic Church, which is even closer than the Orthodox churches. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2024, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/60 "2024-04-07T17:25:41Z")
But the Pope is the world leader of the Church, and as much as he would deny it, thus also a world politician, so he has to consider aspects and interests the local Ukrainian churches can ignore. I don’t want to defend Francis, I think his stance in the Ukrainian war is horrible and shameful, but what he’s doing is realpolitik, though wrong and misguided. ---
**Author:** ![Tatterdemalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2024, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/61 "2024-04-07T18:57:20Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > I don’t want to defend Francis, I think his stance in the Ukrainian war is horrible and shameful, but what he’s doing is realpolitik, though wrong and misguided. But also very traditional for the Catholic Church. And the Catholic Church is all about tradition. [Pope Pius XII for instance.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265.md?page=4)