# Has Francis been doing a good job as Pope? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 27, 2023, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265 "2023-04-27T12:31:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2024, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/62 "2024-04-07T19:05:27Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > that child would have inherited Onan’s estate Onan’s or Onan’s brother’s estate? ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2024, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/63 "2024-04-07T19:24:40Z")
> [@Tatterdemalion](#): > > > [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > > > I don’t want to defend Francis, I think his stance in the Ukrainian war is horrible and shameful, but what he’s doing is realpolitik, though wrong and misguided. > > But also very traditional for the Catholic Church. And the Catholic Church is all about tradition. > > [Pope Pius XII for instance.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII) Yes, I also thought of Pius XII when I wrote that post. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2024, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/64 "2024-04-07T20:11:55Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Francis does not call out Putin by name. Why should he? His message is very clear. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2024, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/65 "2024-04-07T23:37:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Why should he? His message is very clear. Yeah, “I’ll never openly criticize Russia, and I’ll tell Ukraine to stand down and surrender.” Couldn’t be clearer. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/66 "2024-04-08T00:44:45Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Yeah, “I’ll never openly criticize Russia, and I’ll tell Ukraine to stand down and surrender.” Couldn’t be clearer. Wrong on both counts. ---
**Author:** ![Tatterdemalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/67 "2024-04-08T01:53:28Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > Yes, I also thought of Pius XII when I wrote that post. Of course that also begs the question, how man divisions does the pope have? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/68 "2024-04-08T10:00:35Z")
He’s very divisive. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/69 "2024-04-08T12:30:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Wrong on both counts. This is a fiction in your own mind, unless you can find a cite where Francis is asking Putin to leave Ukraine, in the same way that he asked Ukraine to wave the white flag and negotiate. Francis is doing the same thing as every other “peace-seeker” giving free advice in the Ukraine conflict - appeasement. They don’t ask that the invader end the invasion by leaving the invaded country. Russia is this inevitable force, it must never be provoked or criticized, we can only appease it and hope for the best. No, the only party we can try to persuade is Ukraine, who’s expected to trade land for peace. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/70 "2024-04-08T13:29:23Z")
> [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > Isn’t the sin regarding fapping related to Onan? > Because on reading that passage ISTM that the sin is _coitus interruptus._ No, the sin there is failing to live up to your social responsibility (in that society and time) by knockong up your dead brother’s widow, since this would bind her to your family and make you responsible for her well being. That was seen aswhat you should do for your brother; in the original story, Onan was punished because _he tried to shirk responsibility_. > [@mbh](#): > > It was, literally, a money shot. With a child, Onan’s family would be obligated to support the widow. Without a child, she was on her own, and certain to end up in poverty or slavery. Well, I’m sure she was much better off after Onan was struck dead, right? …right? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/71 "2024-04-08T13:31:42Z")
> [@CaveMike](#): > > > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > > > He didn’t have to suggest that Ukraine stand down and surrender to a genocidal maniac. That was absolutely a choice, not a necessary one, and not a good one either. > > Here is the transcript. I think Pope Francis was calling for negotiations, You can’t negotiate with the Russians. Not unless you want to repeat 2014. Trading entire Ukranian provinces for single digit years of peace is not a sustainable option for Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/72 "2024-04-08T13:37:04Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > I’m not really well informed for that question, but I think that despite the centuries old schism, the Catholic and Orthodox churches still (or again) see each other as sister Churches, and one isn’t keen on pissing off the other. But there isn’t a single “Eastern Orthodox Church”. If the Patriarch of Rome is the Pope, there is no equivalent Patriarch to all of Eastern Orthodoxy; instead, there are like 15. And in fact, the Church of Constantinople is no longer in communion with the Church of Moscow: > **[2018 Moscow–Constantinople schism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Moscow%E2%80%93Constantinople_schism)** > > Autocephaly recognized by some autocephalous Churches de jure: > Autocephaly and canonicity recognized by Constantinople and 3 other autocephalous Churches: > Spiritual independence recognized by Georgian Orthodox Church: Does the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople simply have bigger balls than Pope Francis? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/73 "2024-04-08T13:49:56Z")
I think that we can all agree that Francis’s response to the Ukraine War has been lacking. At worst, he’s pro-Russia. At best, he did a really poor job of messaging. The truth is probably somewhere in between there, but we’re really just disputing how bad it was, not whether it was bad. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/74 "2024-04-08T13:50:50Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > But there isn’t a single “Eastern Orthodox Church”. If the Patriarch of Rome is the Pope, there is no equivalent Patriarch to all of Eastern Orthodoxy; instead, there are like 15. I know, that’s why I wrote “churches”, and AFAIK the Catholic Church is in communion with all Orthodox Churches, though I might be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/75 "2024-04-08T14:01:59Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > But there isn’t a single “Eastern Orthodox Church”. If the Patriarch of Rome is the Pope, there is no equivalent Patriarch to all of Eastern Orthodoxy; instead, there are like 15. > > I know, that’s why I wrote “churches”, and AFAIK the Catholic Church is in communion with all Orthodox Churches, though I might be wrong No, I believe you’re correct, my point was just that if the Greek church could cut ties with the Russian, so could the Roman Catholic Church. (And one might imagine this would be easier for the Catholic church than a fellow Orthodox one, but that’s just a guess). But I did further reading (trying to see if any other Orthodox Churches cut ties), and learned that actually, this is a one-way split. Basically the Greek Orthodox church was going to give more religious autonomy to the churches in Ukraine, and since this recognizes Ukraine as an entity which is something Putin and his pet bishop are against, they cut communion with Constantinople; but the Greek church has not reciprocated. So I take back my compliments about the Primate’s balls. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/76 "2024-04-08T14:33:34Z")
I’m not sure the Primate needs to cut off Russia. The Russian Patriarch took a pretty drastic step: Basically, he told the people of Russia, “You cannot do business with Constantinople. If you get married in Istanbul, you will be fornicating, your children will be bastards, and if they are baptized there, they are going to Hell.” The Patriarch of Constantinople, on the other hand is telling the people of Russia, “Hey, we are all still Orthodox. It’s only the leadership we are quarrelling with.” And meanwhile, he is organizing an independent church in Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/77 "2024-04-08T14:58:28Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > You can’t negotiate with the Russians. Not unless you want to repeat 2014. I think it’s more complicated than that. A pacifist might see periodic capitulation as a better option. They might feel that the 8 years between invasions gives time for things to change, leaders to die, etc. Maybe that is the Pope’s position? It is not mine. I am not convinced that Russia needs or wants peace, that they would even accept a partial surrender, and that after 2 years of brutal fighting that they would accept surrender without retribution that dwarfed the losses from fighting. * * * I posted the transcript because it does not match the headlines. I found a lot of articles combing quotes from the journalist and the Pope, but it was hard to find a English version of the transcript. I agree with @Chronos that the Pope’s response has been lacking. If he is advocating for pacifism, then calling for both sides to negotiate peace is a no-brainer. I’m not sure why that isn’t his message. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/78 "2024-04-08T16:02:26Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Well, I’m sure she was much better off after Onan was struck dead, right? …right? I am so glad the sentencing guidelines were changed by the time I hit puberty. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/79 "2024-04-08T16:17:03Z")
I died a thousand deaths in puberty. Small deaths… ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/80 "2024-04-08T18:47:15Z")
Having been brought up in a strict Romam Catholic environment, I think the pope is doing a great job. All he needs to do is offer thoughts and prayers, wear a silly hat and red slippers. I mean, that’s a tough job, right? But some elderly clergyman has to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-francis-been-doing-a-good-job-as-pope/983265/81 "2024-04-08T18:48:08Z")
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