# Has Heritage Fdn killed Conservative/Libertarian political appeal to 'low IQ' Hispanics/Latinos? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 10, 2013, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973 "2013-05-10T11:28:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/21 "2013-05-10T15:08:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, that’s how he self-describes his political philosophy, but perhaps “Constitutional Originalist” would be more useful. Realistically, it means the same thing as “Constitutional Interpretist”. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/22 "2013-05-10T15:09:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, that’s how he self-describes his political philosophy, but perhaps “Constitutional Originalist” would be more useful. Why? It never has been up to now. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/23 "2013-05-10T15:11:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why? It never has been up to now. Sure it is. If I say someone is a “constitutional originalist”, that gives you as much an idea as to what his position on most issues will be as the term “progressive” does. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/24 "2013-05-10T15:12:39Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Put it this way: If Murray is a WN, then so is Richwine. Is Murray a white nationalist? Based just on _The Bell Curve_ I’d say no, he’s just a racist, and/or racialist (or a poor scientist). Unless he has other writings supporting a race-based national identity, then he’s not a white nationalist either. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/25 "2013-05-10T15:18:48Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I don’t know about that, when Rand Paul calls himself that I understand what he means: small government conservative. Basically, strict interpretation of the Constitutional powers of Congress, small military and fairly isolationist foreign policy, and opposition to individual liberties not granted by the Constitution, like marriage equality or abortion. > > Basically, socially conservative and fiscally conservative, with a small-government bent. At least, that’s my understanding. I understand what he means, too, because I understand what his politics are, but it’s a term his dad more or less made up. He is opposed to individual liberties _he_ doesn’t believe are granted by the Constitution; if anything, he’s better described as an anticonstitutionalist, because his views are at odds with the prevailing interpretation. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Put it this way: If Murray is a WN, then so is Richwine. “White nationalist” implies belief in some type of separation. You can be completely bigoted and think whites are intellectually superior (or, in Richwine’s case, believe Asians and Jews are, and whites are okay) and not think other races should be excluded. I only got halfway through his thesis, but I didn’t get a racist vibe from it. More like poorly thought out policy analysis. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/26 "2013-05-10T15:21:22Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > “Constitutionalist” is a term so meaningless as to be without practical use. Something that can mean anything effectively means nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/27 "2013-05-10T15:24:32Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I understand what he means, too, because I understand what his politics are, but it’s a term his dad more or less made up. He is opposed to individual liberties _he_ doesn’t believe are granted by the Constitution; if anything, he’s better described as an anticonstitutionalist, because his views are at odds with the prevailing interpretation. “Rogue Constitutionalist”, perhaps? I don’t disagree, except to note that most political labels are made up and fuzzy to some degree. “Progressive” is similar, you’d only know what it means by knowing the politics of people who self-label as progressive, same with “socialist” or even “conservative”. We know what they mean because we know who uses them, not from the terms themselves. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/28 "2013-05-10T15:28:57Z")
I just read Richwine’s thesis. I would not call it white supremist because it says that Asians have higher IQ than whites. It also advocated treating immigration applicants as individuals and not as representatives for countries or races. I would not consider that rascist. He argues that there is an intelligence difference between hispanics and whites, but the argument is empirical and not normative. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/29 "2013-05-10T15:31:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Put it this way: If Murray is a WN, then so is Richwine. Or, put a better way: Never mind the labels, what matters is, neither is the sort to whom America should be listening WRT immigration policy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/30 "2013-05-10T15:35:42Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > I just read Richwine’s thesis. I would not call it white supremist because it says that Asians have higher IQ than whites. :rolleyes: Yeah, I know. So does Philippe Rushton. He remains a white supremacist nevertheless. So does practically anyone who subscribes to practically any form of [“Racial Realism.”](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Racial_realism) > [@](#): > > **Notable race realists** > > **J. Philippe Rushton:** Advocate of “Life History Theory” that proposes that all socially desirable personality and intellectual traits are concentrated in the White and Asian races, whereas all the antisocial and undesirable traits are concentrated in Black people. Repeatedly criticised in academia for sloppy scholarship including using questionable sources of information including the Penthouse Forum.[4] > > **Richard Lynn:** Eugenics advocate who recently wrote a paper claiming that Black people have longer penises than Whites, who in turn are better endowed than Asians.[5] This was based on Rushton’s “Goldilocks” theory of race: “Orientals have big brains but small genitalia, Africans have small brains but big genitalia, but Europeans Are Just Right.”[6] One of the key sources of data used in this paper was the World Penis Size Site,[7] an anonymously compiled source that includes a lot of made up data and bogus references.[8][9] Lynn has also stated that “incompetent cultures” need “phasing out.”[10] Just to clear up any doubt about which cultures he thinks need “phasing out” he writes: “Who can doubt that the Caucasoids and the Mongoloids are the only two races that have made any significant contributions to civilization?”[11] > > **Donald Templer:** Authored a book on penises used as an additional reference by Richard Lynn even though Templer has no qualifications in urology. Advocates the voluntary sterilization of welfare recipients on eugenics grounds.[12] ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/31 "2013-05-10T16:02:59Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > I just read Richwine’s thesis. I would not call it white supremist because it says that Asians have higher IQ than whites. It also advocated treating immigration applicants as individuals and not as representatives for countries or races. I would not consider that rascist. > He argues that there is an intelligence difference between hispanics and whites, but the argument is empirical and not normative. Can I ask you some questions about it? Does he discuss IQ as a predictor of success in terms of many SES factors? Does he discuss IQ as a predictor of success in terms of staying out of prison? My big two for success in life are having a job and staying out of prison. Does he discuss IQ scores relative to other members of a demographic and objective measures of success? Does he provide any objective measurements indicating that a lack of integration and being poor are necessarily bad? My main interest is the cutoff score so to speak for getting a job, being a decent person to your family and neighbors and, maybe, voting. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/32 "2013-05-10T17:24:16Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > What does this have to do with libertarians? Heritage is a conservative think tank, not a libertarian one. Like it or not libertarian small government ideology in the minds of the public is associated with consevative thought, Tea Partyism and the Republican Party and specifically on race and immigration issues. This Heritage disgraceful report hurts libertarians politically just the same. Guilt by association may be unfair but it is the current reality. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/33 "2013-05-10T17:34:28Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Like it or not libertarian small government ideology in the minds of the public is associated with consevative thought, Tea Partyism and the Republican Party and specifically on race and immigration issues. > > This Heritage disgraceful report hurts libertarians politically just the same. Guilt by association may be unfair but it is the current reality. You think the public believes that libertarians are anti-immigration, or for that matter that all conservatives are? There’s a substantial free-trade wing of the conservative base that strongly supports open borders. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/34 "2013-05-10T17:46:51Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > …There’s a substantial free-trade wing of the conservative base that strongly supports open borders. Nobody can hear them above the noise of Teddy Cruz, _et al._ Many Hispanics/Latinos/Tejanos are “conservative.” But they know that today’s Republican Conservatives are xenophobes & racists. They aren’t buying… ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/35 "2013-05-10T17:48:02Z")
I think the real blockage for any Republican success with Hispanics will be the significant portion of the Republican base that is there because they understand that the Republicans are the party of racism (because they are). Any inroads they make in the Hispanics will result in a loss of their racist base. It is literally a no-win situation for the Republicans … and couldn’t happen to a more deserving bunch. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/36 "2013-05-10T17:56:47Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Can I ask you some questions about it? Does he discuss IQ as a predictor of success in terms of many SES factors? Does he discuss IQ as a predictor of success in terms of staying out of prison? My big two for success in life are having a job and staying out of prison. Does he discuss IQ scores relative to other members of a demographic and objective measures of success? > > Does he provide any objective measurements indicating that a lack of integration and being poor are necessarily bad? > > My main interest is the cutoff score so to speak for getting a job, being a decent person to your family and neighbors and, maybe, voting. He gives a whole long list of things that correlate with IQ. He discusses immigrants and both having a job and staying out of prison. Immigrants have a higher labor force participation rates and lower incarceration rates than natives but immigrant’s children have lower labor force participation rates and higher incarceration rates than natives. He has a whole section on why not integrating is bad. The conclusion of the paper can be illustrated like this. Imagine there are two people John and Bob who both live abroad. John is smarter than Bob and earns $2K a year to Bob’s $1K a year. If they moved to the US, John could earn $50K a year and Bob could earn $30K a year. If the goal of immigration is to benefit the US economy the most than it makes sense to choose John instead of Bob. Since it is impossible to test for earning potential it is best to test for IQ which is highly correlated with earning potential. Furthermore since IQ is highly heritable it is likely that John’s progeny will outearn Bob’s progeny, increasing the benefit to the US for choosing John over Bob. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/37 "2013-05-10T17:57:05Z")
I am somewhat amused at the speed and completeness with which this thread has devolved into parallel quibbles over the definition of White Supremacist, and Constitutionalist. But does anyone actually have an opinion on the OP concerning the affect this will have on Latinos view of the conservative think tanks and the conservative movement in general? My feeling is that it won’t really have much of an effect on current opinions since it doesn’t tell Latinos anything they don’t already know, but its going to make it harder for those Republicans who are trying to turn this opinion around. ETA: Oops posted too late. Several on topic posts got in before mine. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/38 "2013-05-10T17:57:09Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Nobody can hear them above the noise of Teddy Cruz, _et al._ > > Many Hispanics/Latinos/Tejanos are “conservative.” But they know that today’s Republican Conservatives are xenophobes & racists. They aren’t buying… > [@Evil Captor](#): > > I think the real blockage for any Republican success with Hispanics will be the significant portion of the Republican base that is there because they understand that the Republicans are the party of racism (because they are). Any inroads they make in the Hispanics will result in a loss of their racist base. It is literally a no-win situation for the Republicans … and couldn’t happen to a more deserving bunch. We’ll see how it all shakes out. Our system makes a two-party outcome almost inevitable; the Republicans will change as needed just as parties before them, Democrats included, have. A more socially-moderate direction for the Republicans is the one I’d bet on. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/39 "2013-05-10T17:59:47Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I am somewhat amused at the speed and completeness with which this thread has devolved into parallel quibbles over the definition of White Supremacist, and Constitutionalist. But does anyone actually have an opinion on the OP concerning the affect this will have on Latinos view of the conservative think tanks and the conservative movement in general? > > My feeling is that it won’t really have much of an effect on current opinions since it doesn’t tell Latinos anything they don’t already know, but its going to make it harder for those Republicans who are trying to turn this opinion around. I don’t think it will have any measureable effect, for the same reason. It’s nothing new. I do differ, as I did above, with the OP in stating that while it may have a tiny negative effect on the Republicans, it will have no effect on libertarians. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/40 "2013-05-10T18:12:00Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I think the real blockage for any Republican success with Hispanics will be the significant portion of the Republican base that is there because they understand that the Republicans are the party of racism (because they are). Any inroads they make in the Hispanics will result in a loss of their racist base. It is literally a no-win situation for the Republicans … and couldn’t happen to a more deserving bunch. There is no evidence that Republicans are the party of racism. In 2002 they asked white people if they for laws against interracial marriages and Democrats were one half a percent more likely to answer yes. In 2008 they asked whites if they would vote for a black president and strong Democrats were 3.4% more likely to answer no than strong Republicans. [cite](http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2012/08/racism-by-political-party.html) Republicans have always had a problem with Latino voters, (Dukakis got a higher percentage of the Latino vote than Obama did in 2008). In the 2008 exit polls Latinos favored a more active government over a less active government 71% to 29%. In the same exit poll 75% of Latino voters said they prefer a larger government even with higher taxes. Since the Democrat party is the party of higher taxes and big government, it makes sense that Latinos vote for that party. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973.md?page=3)