# Has Heritage Fdn killed Conservative/Libertarian political appeal to 'low IQ' Hispanics/Latinos? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 10, 2013, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973 "2013-05-10T11:28:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/81 "2013-05-11T18:59:30Z")
Well whatever rocks your boat, but as no important cite or group that deals with the issue comes out with a similar one, it is just an opinion, and distracting to the issue at hand.. and that indeed makes me wonder. :dubious: Moving on: [http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2013/05/on\_racist\_junk\_science\_and\_heritage.php](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2013/05/on_racist_junk_science_and_heritage.php) > [@](#): > > TPM Reader MC on the seemingly unsinkable career of racist junk science … > > > [@](#): > > > > The Jason Richwine/Heritage Foundation immigration study’s broad implications about the aptitude of Hispanic immigrants to become productive US citizens really touched a nerve with me. I strongly suspect I am not alone on the reasons why and I think this is an important point in the discussion of this controversy, because it suggests that the political reverberations may go much deeper than just playing badly on Univision. > > > > The “lack of intelligence/ability argument” is a very old saw that was used extensively by past generations of bigots to demonize many immigrants to the US, particularly those from Southern and Eastern Europe - Italians, Poles, Greeks - as well as the Irish and others. And much like today, there was plenty of junk science and punditry claiming to back up these claims. However in 21st Century America, all of these groups have shattered that myth with undeniable achievement and no one making such claims about these groups today would be taken seriously, let alone be politically viable. I believe this fact is very salient in examining the lack of social, political, and scientific validity of the Rothwine/Heritage study and Rothwine’s past work that underlies the Heritage study’s reasoning. (Let’s make no mistake about those connections despite Heritage’s disavowal.) The Univision bit was very important, one should check the Rachel Maddow video cited early to see that the problem now is just like Nixon had. It is the “coverup” and the efforts of pushing this under the rug what are a problem with the Heritage and many that \*\*continue \*\*to support those “researchers”. As the reporter in Univision (the most important Hispanic network in the USA) pointed out to a representative of the Heritage, continuing to keep that creepy researcher in their wing is just showing all Hispanics what many Republicans in leadership positions are continuing to look the other way when racists like that are twisting research and attempting to influence policy based on rotten studies. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/82 "2013-05-16T12:47:34Z")
> [@](#): > > The Republican National Committee’s Director of Hispanic Outreach for Florida, Pablo Pantoja, has quit his post and registered as a Democrat. In his letter of resignation he cited the recent anti-immigrant study by the Heritage Foundation and the general “culture of intolerance surrounding the Republican Party today”. The study itself has been making headlines because language it contains is eerily similar to one of its authors’ college dissertations that concluded, “no one knows whether Hispanics will ever reach IQ parity with whites”. From the [Burnt Orange Report](http://www.burntorangereport.com/diary/13528/rnc-hispanic-outreach-director-resigns-over-intolerance-becomes-democrat)… Please, Republicans, keep it up! If enough _Tejanos_ use their vote (these are legal citizens–many of whose ancestors were on this side of the river before mine crossed the Atlantic–they just don’t like insults), Texas will turn Blue again. And the Republicans will never gain win a national election. (Oh, the Austin website in the link has a “Crazy Ted Cruz” tag.) ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/83 "2013-05-16T14:26:32Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > How strongly? What’s the value of some of these correlations? Are there better predictors? He says that the correlation between IQ and income is .56. > [@](#): > > So immigration is not the problem then? What’s the median income of the children relative to their parents? How much higher and lower are the rates of incarceration and labor force participation, respectively? He has a section which he talks about the children of latino immigrants being assimilated into the oppositional culture of the underclass. He describes this culture as being negative toward work and schooling and gives a theory about why oppositional culture developed. The percent of young men not in the labor force are 7% for whites, 6.5% for immigrants and 11% for native hispanics. The incarceration rates are 1% for whites, .5% for immigrants, and 4.5% for native hispanics. > [@](#): > > You can’t test for earning potential? Do you think it is easier and less expensive to write up and evaluate an IQ test or have the immigrant submit a pay stub? The problem is that income will vary even amoung people with similar IQs depending on the country of origin. It might take a genius to make 10K a year in Haiti whereas in the Dominican Republic someone with average IQ could earn 11K per year. The difference is not due to earning potential but rather to the success of the society they are coming from. Even in the same country different regions have different income distributions and testing for IQ rather than current income will factor that out. > [@](#): > > How highly correlated with earning potential among immigrants? > > So you want to make this a genetic argument…ok…personality is also highly heritable. The personalities of the immigrants are that of hard-work, low levels of criminal involvement, and a willingness to take dangerous risks to support their loved-ones. Since, to some degree which was not specified, immigrants’ children fair worse than their parents on working and criminality, doesn’t that argue there is something wrong with America? > > As to the OP, I do not think Republicans can be less well thought of among immigrant populations than they are now. I think Richwine would agree that the fact that immigrants children fare worse than immigrants on certain measures mean that there is something wrong with America’s ability to assimilate its immigrants into mainstream culture. However, immigration policy can be changed by politicians whenever they want to but changing the culture is a long and difficult undertaking if it is possible to do at all. Given that America gets immigrants for fifty years or so and then gets their descendants forever, it makes sense for the immigrants’ descendants to be factored in to immigration policy. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/84 "2013-05-16T18:48:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Repeatedly criticised in academia for sloppy scholarship including using questionable sources of information including the Penthouse Forum. The jokes just write themselves… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/85 "2013-05-16T18:56:27Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > From the [Burnt Orange Report](http://www.burntorangereport.com/diary/13528/rnc-hispanic-outreach-director-resigns-over-intolerance-becomes-democrat)… > > Please, Republicans, keep it up! If enough _Tejanos_ use their vote (these are legal citizens–many of whose ancestors were on this side of the river before mine crossed the Atlantic–they just don’t like insults), Texas will turn Blue again. And the Republicans will never gain win a national election. > > (Oh, the Austin website in the link has a “Crazy Ted Cruz” tag.) Yeah – but how dangerous can _Tejanos_ be? They’re not only Latino, they’re **Texan.** Talk about IQ problems! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/86 "2013-05-17T02:26:53Z")
The author of the controversial papers quit the Heritage, now to get the demented one that thought that it was a good idea to go to the bottom of the barrel for researchers: [http://nbclatino.com/2013/05/15/immigrant-families-call-for-the-heritage-foundation-president-to-resign/](http://nbclatino.com/2013/05/15/immigrant-families-call-for-the-heritage-foundation-president-to-resign/) > [@](#): > > Immigrant families called for the resignation of the Heritage Foundation President Jim DeMint. > > Immigrant families delivered 5,000 pink slips outside the Heritage Foundation building in Washington D.C. calling for the resignation of its president, Jim DeMint, after issuing what they call is a “faulty anti-immigration” study. > > “Under DeMint’s watch, the foundation has released a widely-criticized ‘economic study’ about the cost of immigration reform that was disturbingly anti-immigrant and openly hostile to immigrant families,” said Kica Matos, the Center for Community Change’s Director of Immigrant Rights and Racial Justice. > > Matos adds that an online petition has garnered 6,600 signatures in less than a week and claims DeMint has earned his pink slip by promoting theories of racial inferiority. > [@](#): > > “This was an appalling failure of leadership. And it is disappointing to see the Heritage Foundation take up offensive and racist rhetoric rather than take the path other Republicans are forging toward achieving immigration reform,” said Rendon. > NBCLatino reached out to the Heritage Foundation for comment but as of this publishing there was no response. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/87 "2013-05-17T02:39:16Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The author of the controversial papers quit the Heritage . . . Is there some kind of paleocon or WN think-tank he could go to? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/88 "2013-05-17T05:34:21Z")
Here’s [a little evidence that the OP has a point](http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/stateroundup/hispanic-outreach-leader-for-gop-in-florida-joins-democratic-party/2121062): the head of the Republican Party’s Hispanic outreach program in Florida has quit to join the Democratic Party, referring to Richwine’s paper in an obscure sort of way as evidence the Republicans have deep-seated issues with Hispanics. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/89 "2013-05-22T16:07:20Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > He gives a whole long list of things that correlate with IQ. What page? > [@puddleglum](#): > > He says that the correlation between IQ and income is .56. What page? > [@puddleglum](#): > > The problem is that income will vary even amoung people with similar IQs depending on the country of origin. It might take a genius to make 10K a year in Haiti whereas in the Dominican Republic someone with average IQ could earn 11K per year. The difference is not due to earning potential but rather to the success of the society they are coming from. Even in the same country different regions have different income distributions and testing for IQ rather than current income will factor that out. IQ would not factor that out because it is an imperfect predictor of income in both the country of origin and in the USA. On the other hand, a person that makes twice the median income in Haiti probably has something special just like the person that makes twice the median income in the Dominican Republic. Statistics allows us to make comparisons while factoring out uninteresting variables such as a nation-of-origin’s overall wealth. > [@puddleglum](#): > > I think Richwine would agree that the fact that immigrants children fare worse than immigrants on certain measures mean that there is something wrong with America’s ability to assimilate its immigrants into mainstream culture. However, immigration policy can be changed by politicians whenever they want to but changing the culture is a long and difficult undertaking if it is possible to do at all. Given that America gets immigrants for fifty years or so and then gets their descendants forever, it makes sense for the immigrants’ descendants to be factored in to immigration policy. No, the thesis is a tortured analysis that attempts to paint a negative picture of the lives of 2nd and 3rd generation immigrant groups and pinning the problem on their IQ. It glosses over the failures of our policies toward immigrants and poor people in general. It should focus on all the reasons why immigrants are successful in every sense except for being poor and what that means for their children - better education, higher median income, and greater incarceration rates. Instead it focuses on IQ and essentially ignores everything else. It shows that being poor in this country is an extremely difficult hurdle to overcome in obtaining all the characteristics of middle class success. The thesis is an extensive undergraduate term paper. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/90 "2013-05-23T06:51:32Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Since it is impossible to test for earning potential it is best to test for IQ which is highly correlated with earning potential. Furthermore since IQ is highly heritable it is likely that John’s progeny will outearn Bob’s progeny, increasing the benefit to the US for choosing John over Bob. I think you’re overreaching: at **most** , IQ is 50% heritable. Say you have a mouse that’s awesome at solving puzzles: do you really care whether the mouse was born intelligent or whether that mouse has been breathlessly solving [Morris maze tests](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_water_navigation_task) since it was a pup? Similarly, how do you tell if Einstein was born smart or developed it naturally due a loving and nurturing environment? And, if you could differentiate the smartbecauseIwasbornthatway person and the smartbecauseIwasnurtured person, would you really choose former of the latter? To do so would mean we would turn the immigration system into some social darwin experiment. As for the immigration thing, I think the parents should, sadly, be expelled from the country and never allowed to return. However, their children can stay. It sounds cruel, I know, but the problem isn’t entirely the immigration system (but it can use reforms) but mostly with government refusing to round them up and deport them and be done with it. If the government can locate Osama bin Laden in some suburb in Pakistan, they sure as hell can locate 20 million non citizens living within their borders. ---
**Author:** ![starchild](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@starchild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/starchild)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/91 "2013-11-12T00:24:42Z")
It’s a dumb question. Everybody knows that some groups of people are smarter than others on average, and pointing this out should not be particularly controversial. For instance, liberals have sometimes pointed out that people in “red” states have lower average IQ scores than people in “blue” states. Does this mean they have killed liberalism’s political appeal to “low IQ” people in red states? If I point out that college professors are smarter on average than other people, is this going to make people not want to go to college? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/92 "2013-11-12T00:32:00Z")
> [@starchild](#): > > It’s a dumb question. Everybody knows that some groups of people are smarter than others on average . . . But not by heredity. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/93 "2013-11-12T03:10:37Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > You can’t test for earning potential? Do you think it is easier and less expensive to write up and evaluate an IQ test or have the immigrant submit a pay stub? What pay stub? In many countries those don’t even exist, but one thing which exists in the immense majority of countries and which immigrants to the US already are asked for is diplomas, which do correlate with earning potential. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973/94 "2013-11-17T23:40:18Z")
It’s interesting isn’t it. Should a Think Tank policy analyst report on the data and explain the likely outcomes of policies regardless of whether the conclusions will be offensive or politically palatable? For example, in this case: 1. Low skill immigration has a net fiscal cost of $130,000 in todays dollars ([National Research Council estimate](http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=5779)). 2. In the case of Mexican Americans there are persisting disparities after 4 generations (Ortiz & Telles). 3. The psychometric data referred to by Richwine isn’t new. You can find it in the [Comprehensive Handbook of Multicultural School Psychology](http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/2005cognitivediversity.pdf). New York: Wiley. 4. [McKinsey found the achievement gap](http://mckinseyonsociety.com/the-economic-impact-of-the-achievement-gap-in-americas-schools/) imposes the economic equivalent of a permanent recession on the nation. So what should a policy analyst do? Ignore this inconvenient data for political reasons? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-heritage-fdn-killed-conservative-libertarian-political-appeal-to-low-iq-hispanics-latinos/657973.md?page=4)