# Has homosexuality ever been any real harm to any civilization or culture ever? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2013, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-homosexuality-ever-been-any-real-harm-to-any-civilization-or-culture-ever/661252 "2013-06-18T05:28:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-homosexuality-ever-been-any-real-harm-to-any-civilization-or-culture-ever/661252/21 "2013-06-18T19:08:13Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Sodom. Well, sure. :rolleyes: But Gomorrah, now _that_ was a town! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-homosexuality-ever-been-any-real-harm-to-any-civilization-or-culture-ever/661252/22 "2013-06-18T19:13:57Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Sodom. None of the great sages of Judaism would agree with you. According to them (and the Sanhedrin section of the Talmud) Sodom and Gamorrah were destroyed for the sin of being without loving kindness. Oh Rashi, Maimonides and the rest would agree that gay sex is a sin. But, they would hold that the cities were destroyed for the sins of cruelty, of being without empathy, and of being inhospitable to strangers. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-homosexuality-ever-been-any-real-harm-to-any-civilization-or-culture-ever/661252/23 "2013-06-18T20:44:47Z")
So right away it’s brought up that gays target children and gays spread AIDS. Sheesh. In his anti-same sex marriage book Outrage, Peter Sprigg brings up pedophiles and AIDS. Then he claims that “90% of all lesbians report being physically or verbally abused by their partners” and “there is evidence that lesbians are more opt to abuse drugs and alcohol, and may have higher rates of some sexually transmitted diseases.” ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-homosexuality-ever-been-any-real-harm-to-any-civilization-or-culture-ever/661252/24 "2013-06-18T21:22:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I think that one _can_ make the argument for it. The problem is making the follow-up argument that it’s some kind of one way street that leads to the destruction of a culture, and not 10-20 years later people just talking about “wow, we sure did get drunk and party too much back then, didn’t we?” The 1960s hippie subculture attitude of “take any drug in reach and see what happens” culture can be argued to have been “decadent”; but people stopped. That completely violates the underlying assumption of “decadence ruining civilization”: that decadence only gets worse and worse, more prevalent and more extreme until everything falls apart. This seems right to me. The whole idea of “cultural decadence” seems to rest on a reading of history as a morality play, that the fall of a culture resulted from some cultural “sin” (specifically, something the culture could have avoided if they had been morally better). And judging from the Nixon quotes, I get the feeling that folks who point to “homosexuality” as a sign of cultural decadence are using it as a stand-in for “lack of strength”: Real leaders are square-jawed manly-men who are ready to stand up and fight, whereas a “faggy” Roman emperor always backs down and allows his enemies to win. That would make the claim a rationalization after the fact, i.e. one that would apply to every civilization that ever declined simply because they were on the losing side of history. No wonder Nixon used it so indiscriminately. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-homosexuality-ever-been-any-real-harm-to-any-civilization-or-culture-ever/661252/25 "2013-06-19T00:05:59Z")
Not only was Richard Nixon a despicable criminal, he didn’t pay enough attention to the TV shows he watched. The whole twist of that episode of All In The Family was that the effeminate guy was straight and Archie’s big, hulking football player buddy was gay. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-homosexuality-ever-been-any-real-harm-to-any-civilization-or-culture-ever/661252/26 "2013-06-19T00:21:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > – [Richard M. Nixon](http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Richard_M._Nixon) > [@](#): > > “Archie’s Guys.” Archie is sitting here with his hippie son-in-law, married to the screwball daughter. The son-in-law apparently goes both ways. This guy. He’s obviously queer — wears an ascot — but not offensively so. Very clever. Uses nice language. Shows pictures of his parents. Nixon supposedly had a phenomenal memory but I think it’s failing him here. I don’t recall “Mike” Archie’s son in law ever dressing or acting effeminately or wearing an ascot. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-homosexuality-ever-been-any-real-harm-to-any-civilization-or-culture-ever/661252/27 "2013-06-19T00:33:45Z")
For a practice to constitute harm, its costs have to outweigh its benefits. What is the benefit of having a society that is accepting of homosexuality? Gay people are free to do what they want to do. Freedom is conducive for individual happiness and full productivity. Happy marriages (or coupling) mean healthy families. Straights have less competition than they would have otherwise. They also don’t have to deal with the heartbreak of courting people who are sexually repressed and/or in the closet. Furthermore, homosexuality helps to subvert rigid gender roles. If only “fags” become nurses or “dykes” play sports, then people will not be comfortable doing what they are well-suited for. Society loses out when people put conformity over individuality. The costs of a society open to homosexuality: More people pairing up and having sex means more people with broken hearts and STDs. Which also means more exciting episodes of Jerry Springer. Fight-the-gay counseling centers will lose business. I can’t think of any more costs. I think the benefits win. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-homosexuality-ever-been-any-real-harm-to-any-civilization-or-culture-ever/661252/28 "2013-06-19T22:54:19Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > For a practice to constitute harm, its costs have to outweigh its benefits. > > What is the benefit of having a society that is accepting of homosexuality? > > Gay people are free to do what they want to do. Freedom is conducive for individual happiness and full productivity. > > Happy marriages (or coupling) mean healthy families. > > Straights have less competition than they would have otherwise. They also don’t have to deal with the heartbreak of courting people who are sexually repressed and/or in the closet. > > Furthermore, homosexuality helps to subvert rigid gender roles. If only “fags” become nurses or “dykes” play sports, then people will not be comfortable doing what they are well-suited for. Society loses out when people put conformity over individuality. > > The costs of a society open to homosexuality: > > More people pairing up and having sex means more people with broken hearts and STDs. Which also means more exciting episodes of Jerry Springer. > > Fight-the-gay counseling centers will lose business. > > I can’t think of any more costs. I think the benefits win. I’m just being a devil’s advocate here, but you did miss one. Bisexual men or women have more sexual options that will not lead to procreation. Though, in an overly populated world, I guess that could be a good side. Still, that’s the one most people who have a rational objection at all seem to be concerned about. They don’t flat out call said people bisexuals, but they do seem to assume that, if same sex marriages are an option, a significant number of people will choose them over different sex marriages. ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-homosexuality-ever-been-any-real-harm-to-any-civilization-or-culture-ever/661252/29 "2013-06-21T17:48:47Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Sodom > > > [@DocCathode](#): > > > > None of the great sages of Judaism would agree with you. According to them (and the Sanhedrin section of the Talmud) Sodom and Gamorrah were destroyed for the sin of being without loving kindness. Oh Rashi, Maimonides and the rest would agree that gay sex is a sin. But, they would hold that the cities were destroyed for the sins of cruelty, of being without empathy, and of being inhospitable to strangers. Besides the fact that God had wanted to destroy the city _before_ any mob try to gang rape some angels. (Warning: Do not try that at home. May result in blindness or fiery death). ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-homosexuality-ever-been-any-real-harm-to-any-civilization-or-culture-ever/661252/30 "2013-06-21T18:00:44Z")
> [@Gedd](#): > > May result in blindness or fiery death Not to mention halitic fossilization. And incest. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-homosexuality-ever-been-any-real-harm-to-any-civilization-or-culture-ever/661252/31 "2013-06-21T18:57:57Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > “there is evidence that lesbians are more opt to abuse drugs and alcohol, and may have higher rates of some sexually transmitted diseases.” That’s what I always figured: Lesbians have more fun. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-homosexuality-ever-been-any-real-harm-to-any-civilization-or-culture-ever/661252/32 "2013-06-23T17:50:34Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > :dubious: That pings my fallacy meter. There’s no reason to assume that mandating or expecting some sort of semi-ritualized male/male sexual behavior is in any way responsible for patriarchal exclusivity and oppression, rather than the other way around. That is, it’s just as likely if not more likely that the patriarchal society evolved near-universal sexual bonding between males as one of its strategies to reinforce male privilege, rather than inflating male privilege as a consequence of spontaneous homosexual bonding. If we traveled back 3,000 years or so in time, we’d probably find that every society on earth had something that we would call “male privilege”. It was the norm for most of human history. But different societies had vastly different approaches to sex. Different sexual acts were normalized and different patterns of family formation existed. And those different patterns of social organization had different results. Some societies moved towards of a pattern where women had more rights and respect; others did not. That movement was not entirely separate from marriage laws and attitudes towards sex, if the two articles that I linked to are correct. ---
**Author:** ![Renee\_RL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7c8e57/32.png) [@Renee\_RL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee_RL)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-homosexuality-ever-been-any-real-harm-to-any-civilization-or-culture-ever/661252/33 "2013-06-25T00:08:29Z")
Wish you worried more about heterosexual pedophiles and rapists…,that’s the real problem ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-homosexuality-ever-been-any-real-harm-to-any-civilization-or-culture-ever/661252/34 "2013-06-25T00:13:43Z")
> [@Prejteach2](#): > > Wish you worried more about heterosexual pedophiles and rapists..,that’s the real problem Society in general does worry about them, a lot, already, and nobody on this board will deny they do actual harm. The question of this thread is whether homosexuals do. ---
**Author:** ![Renee\_RL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7c8e57/32.png) [@Renee\_RL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee_RL)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-homosexuality-ever-been-any-real-harm-to-any-civilization-or-culture-ever/661252/35 "2013-06-25T12:30:37Z")
Actually it is a male problem…most men aren’t rapists but most rapists are men. Homosexuality cannot destroy society but homophobes reduce them to sex acts and dehumanize them By the way lesbians have the lowest rate of stds. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-homosexuality-ever-been-any-real-harm-to-any-civilization-or-culture-ever/661252/36 "2013-06-25T12:43:51Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I don’t think that’s true, but even if it is then all this could have been done more safely if the public in general and gay men in particular had been better educated about the risks of sharing needles and engaging in unprotected sex and especially unprotected anal sex. There will of course always be people who are careless or refuse to listen to what “The Man” says, but the government could have done a much better job of dealing with things in the early years of the AIDS crisis than it did. That might have made a big difference in how quickly the disease spread. But people thought they were educated; they knew you could catch VDs from unprotected sex or from needles, but also that “when you get one, you just get it cured”. They viewed the bother of a course of antibiotics as lesser than the bother of wearing condoms and not sharing needles. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-homosexuality-ever-been-any-real-harm-to-any-civilization-or-culture-ever/661252/37 "2013-06-27T03:29:55Z")
I think it could be seen as threat to _certain cultural norms._ So it isn’t that it’s objectively bad, it’s just bad for the success of Calvinism or whatever. Does that make sense? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-homosexuality-ever-been-any-real-harm-to-any-civilization-or-culture-ever/661252.md?page=1)