# Has Israel gone nuts?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 21, 2001, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425 "2001-08-21T21:18:02Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2001, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/21 "2001-08-22T21:15:26Z")
Firing 70 mm. folding fin rockets, Mavericks, and Hellfires into residential neighborhoods. Shooting automatic weapons at children cowering behind buildings. Assasinating supposed terrorists in the streets, “supposed” because there is never any evidence publicized or is there ever a trial.
I know the Israeleis are at WAR, but there are rules even in war. One of those rules is to minimize civilian casualties.
When an advanced technological power fights a war against stone throwing children and suicide bombers with automatic weapons, helicopters, and tanks, the disparity in force makes it look akin to the Spaniards WAR against the South American native populations. What would have happened to Israel if the world community had reacted similarly to the JEWISH terrorist attacks against British civilian targets during the formation of the Jewish state?
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### Author:  [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2001, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/22 "2001-08-22T21:19:11Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Beagle \*
> the JEWISH terrorist attacks against British civilian targets during the formation of the Jewish state?
Can you give examples of these?
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### Author:  [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2001, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/23 "2001-08-22T21:29:21Z")
I think the bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946 may be what **Beagle** is thinking of.
Some links:
[An Israeli point-of-view from us-israel.org](http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/King_David.html), which seems to imply that the British are to blame for the high casualty count
[A photo from jerusalem-archives.org](http://www.jerusalem-archives.org/period3/3-30.html)
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### Author:  [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2001, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/24 "2001-08-22T21:33:20Z")
The July 1946 terror bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem…But there are dozens of other, more recent, massacres to worry about.
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### Author:  [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2001, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/25 "2001-08-22T21:48:02Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by LNO \*
> I think the bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946 may be what **Beagle** is thinking of.
According to this link (and I had also heard this previously) the KD Hotel was the headquarters for the British military. Sounds like a legitimate target to me, especially if they indeed warned the people to evacuate.
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Beagle \*
> But there are dozens of other, more recent, massacres to worry about.
Which you know will just bore us so you won’t name.
Nice try.
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### Author:  [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2001, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/26 "2001-08-22T22:05:22Z")
Buses can contain soldiers…sounds like a legitimate target to me. Soldiers shop…malls sound like a legitimate target to me. Soldiers eat…restaurants sound like a legitimate target to me. Not really, but maybe “nuts” is not a strong enough word.
Children can grow up to be soldiers. Ergo, kill pregnant women, right?
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### Author:  [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2001, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/27 "2001-08-22T22:25:21Z")
Just Yahoo Jewish and Terrorism, you will see this thing cuts both ways…and has since the mid-40s. Try the Truman library. Isn’t carrying a gun into a mosque and slaughtering worshipers terrorism and a massacre? Please don’t say “the government didn’t do it”…those arguments cut both ways too.
I mean, I don’t make stuff up, if that is what you are saying. Please study the violent history of Israel and get back…
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### Author:  [@tradesilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tradesilicon)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2001, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/28 "2001-08-22T22:44:42Z")
If you ask the same question of the Families of the suiside bombers, and you hear praise and adminration for their dead child/sibling in responce, who is nuts?
I would have to say that the parents of such suisidal mainiacs are themselves nuts if they are glad about the death of their child. I have heard one possible explanation for some cases, and that is that young men who may be in trouble (not sure what kind) are basically approached with a proposal - stick around in the community and you will end up jailed and tortured, and your family will be disgraced, or take one glorious moment to shine by killing our enemies, and you will be rewarded in heaven while your family is rewarded here. Of course I have no personal knowledge of this being true, but it is a story I heard on ABC radio. Anyone know more on this topic?
If we are to believe that this can happen, then taking at least some steps to make sure that the family is not rewarded for such actions would be logical.
Another side of this is that you have to truly indoctrinate people with hatred to make them carry out such an act. I have heard that Palestinian schools still taught a hatred of Israel even while peace talks were going on, (some discussion took place on this board as well), so that’s a place to start if we want to put a stop to this craziness.
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### Author:  [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2001, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/29 "2001-08-22T23:00:50Z")
Beagle:
> [@](#):
>
> Isn’t carrying a gun into a mosque and slaughtering worshipers terrorism and a massacre? Please don’t say “the government didn’t do it”…those arguments cut both ways too.
The distinction, though, is in whether or not that government prosecutes and punishes the perpetrator. The Israeli government does, the Palestinian Authority seldom does.
Chaim Mattis Keller
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### Author:  [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2001, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/30 "2001-08-22T23:35:45Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Mambo \*
> And if the wall in the Al-Aqsa compound collapses as a recent AOL News article said is likely (can’t find the link-but basically a huge bulge has developed in a wall of the smaller mosque, weakening the framework), we should **all** prepare for war.
This wall was weakened by the Muslim Waqf trucking thousands of pounds of dirt off of Temple Mount in order to expand the mosques at Solomon’s Stables. If it collapses, it will be their own fault. Not that it will get spun that way.
**Beagle** :
Trying to portray the Palestinian people as a civil, just minority being oppressed by ruthless Israelis is just about as far from the truth as you could get. Portraying their struggle as “stone throwing children” only gives half of the story. The instances of children getting killed are usually when a group of children begin throwing stones at the Israelis. The Israelis will respond with non-lethal means to such an action. It is when the Tanzim step in behind them and start firing automatic weapons at the Israelis using the children as shields when children get hurt. What kind of society lets its children do its fighting? What kind of society closes its schools with the specific aim of raising the body count on their minors. Quoting a 5:1 Palestinian death rate doesn’t factor into account the methods of attack.
I am not trying to justify the King David bombing. The actions of the Irgun 55 years ago IMHO are dispicable. But, the Irgun did not form the core of Zionist policy. They were an extremist organization who was marginalized in the future state of Israel. The current State of Israel is the only country in the region with even a hint of human rights, personal liberty, and democracy. You couldn’t list all of the human rights violations of the Arab states if you tried.
You know, I don’t care if you sympathize with the Israelis or the Palestinians. Just try to look at the situation with an open mind. IMHO knee-jerk “they are killing babies in the streets!” does not further the debate.
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### Author:  [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2001, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/31 "2001-08-22T23:49:52Z")
> [@](#):
>
> I wonder what the international community would think if the U.S. regularly went into Mexico to destroy police headquarters and civilian homes.
But the Mexicans aren’t strapping bombs onto themselves and blowing up buses, restaurants, or nightclubs in El Paso, either.
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### Author:  [@curwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curwin)
#### Post date: [August 22, 2001, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/32 "2001-08-22T23:55:34Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Beagle \*
> Firing 70 mm. folding fin rockets, Mavericks, and Hellfires into residential neighborhoods. Shooting automatic weapons at children cowering behind buildings. Assasinating supposed terrorists in the streets, “supposed” because there is never any evidence publicized or is there ever a trial.
>
> I know the Israeleis are at WAR, but there are rules even in war. One of those rules is to minimize civilian casualties.
Again, I would like some more details. Please tell me which of the attacks on residential neighborhoods you describe as “systematic slaughter”.
And again, in war, I don’t recall any of the Serbs, Iraqis, Panamanians, etc killed ever receiving any trial. That doesn’t happen in war.
The primary difference between the Palestinians and the Israelis in this conflict is that the Israelis are trying to minimize civilian casualties on both sides as much as possible, whereas the Palestinians are trying to maximize civilian Jewish casualties (preferably children) even at the expense of their own civilians (often children).
> [@](#):
>
> What would have happened to Israel if the world community had reacted similarly to the JEWISH terrorist attacks against British civilian targets during the formation of the Jewish state?
The “world” did strongly react against the attacks against the British targets.
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### Author:  [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2001, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/33 "2001-08-23T00:33:29Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Beagle \*
> Buses can contain soldiers…sounds like a legitimate target to me. Soldiers shop…malls sound like a legitimate target to me. Soldiers eat…restaurants sound like a legitimate target to me. Not really, but maybe “nuts” is not a strong enough word.
>
> Children can grow up to be soldiers. Ergo, kill pregnant women, right?
Is there some part of the term “military headquarters” that you don’t understand? From the linked website:
> [@](#):
>
> During the British Mandate, the entire southern wing became the administrative and military center of British rule in Palestine
> [@](#):
>
> Few people in the hotel proper were injured by the blast.
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Beagle \*
> Just Yahoo Jewish and Terrorism, you will see this thing cuts both ways…and has since the mid-40s.
This is meaningless. Just Yahoo Beagle and moron and let me know what you come up with. Basically you have nothing to say.
> [@](#):
>
> Please don’t say “the government didn’t do it”
The government didn’t do it.
> [@](#):
>
> I mean, I don’t make stuff up, if that is what you are saying.
Among other things, yes.
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### Author:  [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2001, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/34 "2001-08-23T00:45:22Z")
Yahoo “Jewish Terrorism” some of what you will read supports your own position, much does not. EXAMPLES? You will find hundreds.
If children are killed, no matter what faith, I find that reprehensible. Not every arab child is killed through suicide bombings, Israel cannot escape culpability for its own actions any more than Hamas can.
I personally find this historical revisionism and blinders-on thinking boring. I am sure you think Israel attacking the US spy ship in the 1960s was our fault, too. BYE, try a little empathy.
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### Author:  [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2001, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/35 "2001-08-23T02:33:38Z")
Nobody is arguing that Israel did right by torpedoing a US surveillance ship during the Six Day War. Nobody is cheering on the Irgun here. Many are attempting to justify the action – an appropriate justification of the torpedoing of the US ship would be that Israel was at war and the US was attempting to collect intelligence while Israel was at war, or that it was a time of confusion.
It is besides the point. You are pointing to a handful of historical examples to demonstrate that Israel is as brutal and oppressive of a regime as anything the Arabs put on the field. A few isolated incidents do not compare to the repression offered by the governments around them. Please try again, with something more concrete and relevant to the current conflict. You point to one Israeli wrongdoing, I can point to 10 on the other side. Neither side is free of guilt – nobody will ever deny that. But, you cannot equate the repression on either side of the Green Line. Tell me where my blinders are.
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### Author:  [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2001, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/36 "2001-08-23T03:32:08Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by edwino \*
> Nobody is cheering on the Irgun here.
Hmm…it would appear that my posts to this thread have become invisible.
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### Author:  [@curwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curwin)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2001, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/37 "2001-08-23T04:45:13Z")
I’d like to mention that a cousin of mine was the head of operations for the Irgun. He was the one in charge of the attack on the King David Hotel, along with most other Irgun actions.
He was a remarkable man, and was tragically killed in a car accident 23 years ago. Recently, a book came out discussing his actions and those of the Irgun. The one thing that comes out clearly is that despite the Irgun’s seriousness about driving out the British, they did as much as possible to avoid civilian casualties, and even tried to avoid British military casualties when not absolutely necessary. There are stories there about how my cousin set up a couple in an intimate act do draw the attention of a guard of a building about to be attacked, so he wouldn’t be hurt.
This is in stark contract to the actions of the Palestinians who attempt to kill as many civilians as possible. Just in my area alone, there were two teenage boys stoned to death in a cave, and five people (including my next door neighbor) killed while driving to Jerusalem. They were not military targets, in any sense of the word. Neither was the baby nephew of one of my neighbors who was killed when a rock was thrown at their car. (Yes, Virginia, rocks can kill).
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### Author:  [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2001, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/38 "2001-08-23T12:54:06Z")
Well, the American colonists during the Revolutionary War didn’t play by the “rules of war” against the British, either. The question is, when is an attack “guerrilla warfare” and hence reasonably justified, and when is it “terrorism” and not justified?
That’s a very sticky point.
I like the definition that says that the distinction has to do with how close the target of the attack is to the military objective. Thus, blowing up British Military HQ that happened to be located in a hotel is an act of guerrilla warfare, if your goal is to chase the British military away. Murdering an American citizen who is on a Greek tourboat in Egypt because you want to liberate Palestine from Israeli control, that’s terrorism – there is no link whatsoever between the murder and the political objective.
By that standard, blowing up a random set of civilians in a mall because you want political independence from that country’s government, would be terrorism. Bombing the HQ of a Palestinian Authority that sponsors terrorism, at least the act is related to the objective.
* * *
On the notion of punishing a family for the crime of one of its members, let’s not try to apply Western Christian ideology to a non-Western, non-Christian culture. The WC culture says that each individual is responsible for his/her own crimes, only. We live in a society where grown/ children don’t live with their parents (generally), where there is no notion of collective responsibility. In Palestinian culture, the extended family lives together – parents, grandparents, children. And there is very much a notion of collective responsibility.
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### Author:  [@Baltazar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baltazar)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2001, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/39 "2001-08-23T13:47:26Z")
Have they been anything but nuts.
Israel should never have been created.
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### Author:  [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2001, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/40 "2001-08-23T14:47:16Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by IzzyR \*
> Hmm…it would appear that my posts to this thread have become invisible.
Sorry, I meant the collateral killing of innocents in the Irgun bombing. I apologize if that wasn’t clear.
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