# Has Israel gone nuts?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 21, 2001, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425 "2001-08-21T21:18:02Z")
**Posts on this page:** 8
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@epolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epolo)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2001, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/41 "2001-08-23T15:00:39Z")
Someone asked:
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> I wonder what the international community would think if the U.S. regularly went into Mexico to destroy police headquarters and civilian homes.
I’m not sure what this proves, but the [Christian Science Monitor](http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/1998/02/04/intl/intl.4.html) reports:
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> Last November [1997], a US Border Patrol agent assigned to the Arizona border was fired after he pursued a suspect a few feet into Mexico.
Again, the US isn’t at war with Mexico, officially or otherwise. OTOH, the US is currently fighting a proxy war against drug producers (and terrorists) in Columbia. The international community seems to shrug this off pretty easily.
Personally, what bothers me more is when Israel, in its campaign, violates the rules of the Bible. Without claiming that the laws in the Bible are necessarily “divine,” I think we could say that they constitute a sort of cultural mission statement for a Jewish homeland IMHO. I find [destroying olive trees](http://www.hebron.com/israel-destroy-olive-trees-121097.html) pretty indefensable in light of [Deuteronomy 20:19](http://www.tachash.org/texis/vtx/chumash/+lwwBmeqEt3WIwwwnFqhBGnn5hzmxwww/article.html)
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> If you besiege a city many days to wage war against it, to capture it, do not harm [any of] its trees by chopping it with an ax, because you eat from it you are not to cut it down; For, is the tree in the field a man to join the besieged to escape you?
As **C K Dexter Haven** said
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> [L]et’s not try to apply Western Christian ideology to a non-Western, non-Christian culture.
Can someone cite appropriate cultural references for or against the OP?
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### Author:  [@curwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curwin)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2001, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/42 "2001-08-23T17:43:24Z")
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> \*Originally posted by epolo \*
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> Personally, what bothers me more is when Israel, in its campaign, violates the rules of the Bible. Without claiming that the laws in the Bible are necessarily “divine,” I think we could say that they constitute a sort of cultural mission statement for a Jewish homeland IMHO. I find [destroying olive trees](http://www.hebron.com/israel-destroy-olive-trees-121097.html) pretty indefensable in light of [Deuteronomy 20:19](http://www.tachash.org/texis/vtx/chumash/+lwwBmeqEt3WIwwwnFqhBGnn5hzmxwww/article.html)
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> > If you besiege a city many days to wage war against it, to capture it, do not harm [any of] its trees by chopping it with an ax, because you eat from it you are not to cut it down; For, is the tree in the field a man to join the besieged to escape you?
First of all, Israel is not governed by the laws of the Torah (Bible). Secondly, if Israel were to be governed by Jewish law, or even inspired by it, I hope that it would be Jewish law as viewed throughout the ages, i.e. biblical text with rabbinic interpretation (which you don’t quote). Thirdly, I have a bit of a problem with Israel being held to a higher moral standard when the other side is not. That sounds like racism – against the Arabs. While I am not familiar with the Koran, I can assume that the Koran does not approve of blowing up innocent children. I would like to hear you call the Arabs to the Koran as well.
But to your question. I do have a response from this page:
[http://www.ateret.org.il/english/opinions/yeshinyan/yeshinyan38.htm](http://www.ateret.org.il/english/opinions/yeshinyan/yeshinyan38.htm)
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> Q: In light of the situation, there is a Palestinian Israeli organization Btzelem that replants trees in the places that the army has uprooted trees due to their being used as hiding places for terrorist attacks. Tearing up trees is against many international declarations, and the laws of the land. My question to you is the conflict between uprooting trees and the biblical commandment [to plant].
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> The Tanach forbids uprooting trees, but if there is an element of saving lives, then it is allowed. It is not a problem. Any sovereign state that sees a need to do so can uproot trees. That is the way it is around the world, and in the Torah it is forbidden to uproot trees for no reason - but if there is a reason - especially saving a life, then there is no such thing as not uprooting the trees. Obviously, a human life comes before the life of a tree.
And from this site:
[http://www.jewish.co.uk/news030401.php3](http://www.jewish.co.uk/news030401.php3)
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> Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon instructed the Israel Defense Force not to uproot trees in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Army Radio reported. According to Sharon’s directive, if the IDF determines Palestinian gunmen are using trees for cover, it should prune the lower branches and not cut down the whole tree, as the IDF has been doing.
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### Author:  [@epolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epolo)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2001, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/43 "2001-08-23T18:23:51Z")
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> First of all, Israel is not governed by the laws of the Torah (Bible).
I know, I know. My point (I think) was that if Israel’s _raison d’etre_ is to be a Jewish state, then we should analyse its actions in terms of a Jewish social and moral context. That’s how I interpreted **CDH** ’s comment and it jibes with my own leanings.
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> Secondly, if Israel were to be governed by Jewish law, or even inspired by it, I hope that it would be Jewish law as viewed throughout the ages, i.e. biblical text with rabbinic interpretation (which you don’t quote).
Fair enough. I just plucked a particular example that I had heard of and tried (unsuccessfully I suppose) to apply the type of analysis suggested above.
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> Thirdly, I have a bit of a problem with Israel being held to a higher moral standard when the other side is not. That sounds like racism – against the Arabs.
I couldn’t disagree here more. First, I haven’t said anything about the other side. Second, I don’t think it’s racist to hold one’s self to a high standard. Third, my rabbi has always told me that it’s our obligation as Jews to act in accordance with the moral dictates handed down to us. Other people choose not to accept those dictates, that’s their business and it’s not for us to judge.
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> While I am not familiar with the Koran, I can assume that the Koran does not approve of blowing up innocent children. I would like to hear you call the Arabs to the Koran as well.
I’m not familiar with the Koran particularly either. Therefore, I don’t feel comfortable calling anyone to it. But I certainly think that it would be fair to analyse the actions of the Palestinans by its words or themes. Anyone more versed in this stuff want to take that up?
As to your cites, thanks. I feel (somewhat) better already.
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### Author:  [@curwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curwin)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2001, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/44 "2001-08-23T20:38:30Z")
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> \*Originally posted by epolo \*
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> I couldn’t disagree here more. First, I haven’t said anything about the other side.
That was what bothered me.
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> Second, I don’t think it’s racist to hold one’s self to a high standard.
Not that it should have been relevant, but I didn’t assume you were Jewish, and I guess that influenced my reaction. I think we (the Jews) should and have to hold ourselves to the highest standard. We are actually forbidden to “walk in their ways”.
The racism here is where two types of people - Arab and Jew - commit the same act, and one is held to a higher standard. In this case there is the obvious racism - anti-semtism that makes the Jew hater jump to accuse the Jew. But there is a deeper, more sublime, and perhaps more dangerous racism going on here as well. When a Jew is condemned for shooting a teenager who is throwing a Molotov cocktail at him, and an Arab is not condmened for blowing up a disco full of teenagers, then there is racism against the Arab as well. The assumption here is that the Arab is somehow on a lower moral level and can’t be expected to live up to the same moral standards as the Jew. I can tell you, that if I were an Arab, that would really bother me.
One last point that I didn’t mention in the previous post: I suggest you look at _all_ the Torah’s laws about warfare before you decide that we should implement them in today’s conflict. I think in the end you might decide that certain laws made more sense in those times.
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### Author:  [@epolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epolo)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2001, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/45 "2001-08-23T21:24:49Z")
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> _Originally posted by curwin_
> I suggest you look at all the Torah’s laws
Oops…I’m new to these boards and I didn’t realise the standard of erudition was quite so high. I’ll get back to you in about 96 years after I’ve had some time to do some research. ;j
Seriously though, what suggestions regarding the current conflict does Jewish law make in your opinion?
Could someone versed in Koran/Arabic/Palestinian tradition comment on Palestinian actions from that perspective?
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### Author:  [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2001, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/46 "2001-08-27T15:20:30Z")
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> \*Originally posted by Milossarian \*
> \*\* That said, what do you do? As I asserted in other threads on this subject, any deal struck with Arafat isn’t fit for outhouse use. **He has no control over the people he purports to represent.** \*\*
I haven’t seen the other threads. I don’t visit GB very often. But I doubt the veracity of that statement. That’s what Arafat wants everyone to believe, and that’s what the media says. But I wonder. The fact is that after purporting arresting known terrorists (he places them only under house arrest) he releases them after only 2-3 days. If he were serious about stopping terrorism, he would be faithful to covenants he has signed. The PLO charter, as you know, still calls for the elimination of Jews from all of Israel: drive them to the sea. Although Arafat has repeatedly said he’d repeal that, the PLO never has. Repeal of the provisions (and the charter contains many such allusions) was drafted, but never enacted.
As intimated before, primarily by tradesilicon, when a young Arab dies due to an Israelite act, he becomes a martyr and a source of joy to his/her parents. So, the proposal noted in the OP has some merit on that basis. I’m not saying I’m in agreement with it, but it’s not as nuts as it sounds.
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### Author:  [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2001, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/47 "2001-08-27T16:42:40Z")
Just a quick question…
Maybe I missed this but has there been any declaration of WAR as a few posters seem to be implying? As far as I can see this is a matter of a government dealing (rightly or wrongly) with terrorist organizations. Actually it is a hell of a lot more complicated than that considering the issues of religion, recent history, and nationalism. Ok I’m straying but as far as I know Israel and Palistine (occupied territories…whatever) are not at war with each other.
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### Author:  [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)
#### Post date: [August 28, 2001, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-israel-gone-nuts/77425/48 "2001-08-28T04:23:03Z")
**kingpengvin** :
I believe a formal declaration of war would be unwise and maybe impossible. Unwise because it would give the neighboring Arab countries no reason not to give armed support to the Palestinian cause. Impossible because the world does not yet recognize an independent state of Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza. I believe declarations of war are usually made against sovereign bodies (except of course for Wal-Mart’s War on High Prices). A declaration of war may force the formation of a sovereign hostile neighbor, and Palestine’s Arab allies may be obliged to join in in any war effort.
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