# Has John McCain Lost His Mind? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2013, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-john-mccain-lost-his-mind/659524 "2013-05-28T06:02:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-john-mccain-lost-his-mind/659524/81 "2013-05-29T18:48:52Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I guess with 80,000 dead, millions displaced, and the war gradually, deliberately, spreading to its neighbors we can still only assume that Assad is ‘too beastly to permit’… You will recall, I trust, how often moral clarity has been offered as a justification for acts of savagery, and need not be reminded. No doubt you remember how it was offered as a justification for a war against Saddam, and led us to ally ourselves and support despots whose moral superiority over Saddam requires a very fine instrument of moral distinction, and resulted in the death of more than a hundred thousand innocent Iraqis who were not consulted for their views on the moral issues. > [@](#): > > …With an attitude like yours, I guess nobody in the Middle East deserves to live in a democracy that reflects their beliefs and attitudes… How you wring this preposterous formula from my comments eludes me and, Goddess willing, shall elude me in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-john-mccain-lost-his-mind/659524/82 "2013-05-29T19:28:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Really? You don’t think there would be people lining up to buy anti-aircraft missiles on the black market? I think you have it backwards. The point was that non-arms supplies cannot easily be traded for American anti-aircraft technology. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > But you continue to want to expand this beyond my original objection to the OP, and I’m not really sure why. THe OP states " Second, he is meeting with people affiliated with Al Queda". The claim was "meeting’, not “dealing” or “supporting”. I’m asking the OP why McCain “meeting” with certain people is different from Obama administration officiaLs “meeting” with the same people. Because the profile of the meeting and the agendas of the parties matter to assessing whether the meeting is wrong or improper. I don’t agree that it’s fair to criticize McCain on this point, largely because I think the connection to Al-Nusra is overblown, and because I think open dialogue outweighs the diplomatic consequences of meetings that under diplomatic conventions are inappropriate (logic which also applies to Obama meeting with leaders from, say, Iran–something I recall McCain being quite critical of). But that doesn’t mean every reasonable person must either criticize both Obama and McCain or defend them both on this point. It is well within the bounds of reasonableness to assert that it is inappropriate for McCain to publicly and personally take this meeting at this time without also taking the position that it was inappropriate for executive branch officials to meet with Idriss to discuss non-weapon support. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-john-mccain-lost-his-mind/659524/83 "2013-05-29T19:31:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Does that mean the R-party **wants** U.S. intervention in Syria? IME, American RWs are divided on that point, are even divided as to which side they want to win this war. They’re waiting for Obama to take action, so they can criticize it. They are terrified of saying, “We should intervene,” and then Obama intervenes. Agreeing with Obama is the worst of all capital crimes for these guys. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-john-mccain-lost-his-mind/659524/84 "2013-05-29T20:21:37Z")
“We know he’s wrong, we just don’t know yet what exactly he is wrong about, until he tells us!” ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-john-mccain-lost-his-mind/659524/85 "2013-05-29T20:27:58Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-john-mccain-lost-his-mind/659524/86 "2013-05-29T20:42:01Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > We can’t support anybody in particular. My inclination would be, of course, to support those who favor a secular parliamentary democracy. Which is who, exactly? The Shia fanatics and the Sunni fanatics would both hate you as an atheist. On top of that would be the enormous benefit of being associated with America. Might as well call yourselves the Benjamin Netanyahu Fan Club. > > Another option would be to refuse any judgement in terms of the rebel groups, support them all regardless, assuming that the Assad regime is too beastly to permit. So awful that any group, however fanatical, would be an improvement. Trouble is, with any secular movement so disadvantaged, the “winner” is almost sure to be aligned with some religious program, of which we have seen far too much already. > > Without some actual position to leverage, we got nothin’. We might as well confine ourselves to pious statements and deploring whatever just happened. And prayer. Can’t hurt, I suppose. Probably just as good if not better than anything John McCain is likely to cook up. Elucid, you do realize that most western countries aren’t “secular parliamentary democracies”. I certainly wish in that regard more western countries were like the US, France, or Turkey, but most don’t. It seems unfair to make such demands on Muslim Middle Easterners while ignoring the Norwegians, British, and Israelis. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-john-mccain-lost-his-mind/659524/87 "2013-05-29T20:51:37Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Elucid, you do realize that most western countries aren’t “secular parliamentary democracies”. No, all of them are, if we use a definition broad enough to include the UK, which we should, monarchy and state-church notwithstanding; and likewise broad enough to encompass the U.S., which we should, separation-of-powers system notwithstanding. (Unless you are using a different definition of “Western” than the usual.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-john-mccain-lost-his-mind/659524/88 "2013-05-29T20:52:53Z")
“Demands”? My “inclination” is a “demand”? Not quite taking your point, here. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-john-mccain-lost-his-mind/659524/89 "2013-05-29T20:54:27Z")
Oh, good catch, I had quite forgotten about the Brits groaning under the yoke of the Anglican Church. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-john-mccain-lost-his-mind/659524/90 "2013-05-29T22:20:22Z")
I’m glad to hear that both BG and Euclid think the overwhelming majority of Muslim nations are secular. I’m also a bit surprised to hear that BG thinks nations with official church’s and state funded religious schools which require all citizens to carry IDs and other states which automatically list all babies born in the rolls of the church as being secular. BG, let me first congratulate you for saying that the overwhelming majority of supposedly Muslim countries are “secular” but please explain your latter claim about countries with state churches, requiring people to list their religion on their IDs, have state-funded religious schools being secular because to me such a statement is ridiculous. So, please explain. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-john-mccain-lost-his-mind/659524/91 "2013-05-29T22:23:56Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, good catch, I had quite forgotten about the Brits groaning under the yoke of the Anglican Church. So then why did you moronically wish for people in the Arab world to want a secular parliamentary democracy when you don’t seem to feel its necessary for the people if the UK. Isn’t that quite racist/ethnocentric to hold Arabs to different standards than the UK? Why is that? Is it their skin tone, their ethnicity, the fact that they’re mostly Muslims, or is it something else? ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-john-mccain-lost-his-mind/659524/92 "2013-05-29T22:41:30Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You will recall, I trust, how often moral clarity has been offered as a justification for acts of savagery, and need not be reminded. No doubt you remember how it was offered as a justification for a war against Saddam, and led us to ally ourselves and support despots whose moral superiority over Saddam requires a very fine instrument of moral distinction, and resulted in the death of more than a hundred thousand innocent Iraqis who were not consulted for their views on the moral issues. The big difference here being the war has started without our intervention. It has already taken close to as many lives as our incompetent control of Iraq. We were able to halt the bloodshed once we did something about it though. On the other hand if we take no side a dictator will win in a year? What’s that, 40,000 more dead and a few more million displaced? What if the dictator is kind of a pathetic beast so that it takes 5, 10, maybe 30 years to win? You think Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan are going to tolerate millions of refugees for that long? You’re not thinking of how this is spreading and becoming a greater regional problem; you’re too worried about your morality. This isn’t about morality, it’s about minimizing the consequences of the war to our friends in the region while giving the Syrians their only chance at democracy they’ll have for years to come. > [@elucidator](#): > > How you wring this preposterous formula from my comments eludes me and, Goddess willing, shall elude me in the future. You’re the one hinging things on secular democracies. The people of the Middle East are not going to produce secular democracies. They are going to produce democracies heavily influenced by their beliefs or the beliefs of their most influential leaders and that includes Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-john-mccain-lost-his-mind/659524/93 "2013-05-29T22:53:49Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > You’re the one hinging things on secular democracies. The people of the Middle East are not going to produce secular democracies. They are going to produce democracies heavily influenced by their beliefs or the beliefs of their most influential leaders and that includes Islam. Moreover, he doesn’t seem to have a problem with white Europeans having Christian democracies instead of secular democracies. I really think he owes us an explanation for such contradictory beliefs that border on racism. Euclid, What is it about us that makes you feel we should be treated differently than white Europeans? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-john-mccain-lost-his-mind/659524/94 "2013-05-29T23:12:47Z")
I’m stunned. I send the words out here, and they come back all mangled and twisted like a balloon animal from a drunken clown. I have no idea what you are talking about, and I am what you are talking about! ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-john-mccain-lost-his-mind/659524/95 "2013-05-29T23:23:29Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > BG, let me first congratulate you for saying that the overwhelming majority of supposedly Muslim countries are “secular” but please explain your latter claim about countries with state churches, requiring people to list their religion on their IDs, have state-funded religious schools being secular because to me such a statement is ridiculous. > > So, please explain. You seem to have confused “secular” with “not in violation of the first amendment to the United States Constitution.” None of the features you just listed are necessarily in conflict with a secular government. I think they are, in general, not good ideas, because they weaken a secular state’s defenses against being taken over by theocrats, but they are not, in and of themselves, evidence of theocratic government. I think much more important hallmarks of a secular government are things like: Does the state government routinely enforce religious laws? Are their limits on a citizen’s political rights based on their religious affiliations? Is political office limited to members of a particular religion, or barred to members of a specific religion? Do religious leaders wield significant, direct political power simply on the basis of their religious office? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-john-mccain-lost-his-mind/659524/96 "2013-05-29T23:32:14Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I’m stunned. I send the words out here, and they come back all mangled and twisted like a balloon animal from a drunken clown. I have no idea what you are talking about, and I am what you are talking about! Er… Didn’t you insist you wanted Arabs who would push for “secular parliamentary democracies” and then show support for European countries, such as the UK, which aren’t secular parliamentary democracies? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-john-mccain-lost-his-mind/659524/97 "2013-05-29T23:43:49Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You seem to have confused “secular” with “not in violation of the first amendment to the United States Constitution.” None of the features you just listed are necessarily in conflict with a secular government. I think they are, in general, not good ideas, because they weaken a secular state’s defenses against being taken over by theocrats, but they are not, in and of themselves, evidence of theocratic government. > > I think much more important hallmarks of a secular government are things like: > > Does the state government routinely enforce religious laws? > > Are their limits on a citizen’s political rights based on their religious affiliations? > > Is political office limited to members of a particular religion, or barred to members of a specific religion? > > Do religious leaders wield significant, direct political power simply on the basis of their religious office? Fair points, but I think you’re redefing the term “secular government” to mean “non-theocracy”. Now, based on such sentiments Euclid’s complaints about the lack of people calling for a “secular parliamentary democracy” is silly because based on your logic the overwhelming majority of “Muslim governments” should be considered “secular”. Beyond that, and I don’t mean this as an insult, but if we’re going to say a country which has religious tests to be the head if state and where the head of the church can call for new parliamentary elections whenever she wants, including when a government she doesn’t like is doing poorly at the polls, then we need to retire the term secular. For those who don’t realize, yes Queen Elizabeth has that power, as the Austarlian socialists can testify to. Similarly, I think we can agree that it’s silly to classify countries with laws against “blasphemy” as being “secular”. Now you appear to feel that a country can be “secular” if it officially grants special favor and recognition to some religions but not others, but I think most would disagree, and I suspect if you thought about it you’d change your mind. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-john-mccain-lost-his-mind/659524/98 "2013-05-29T23:53:42Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er… Didn’t you insist you wanted Arabs who would push for “secular parliamentary democracies” and then show support for European countries, such as the UK, which aren’t secular parliamentary democracies? You aren’t making a lot of sense here. Does the Anglican Church hold religious court hearings with the power to impose fines, punishment, or even death? Nope. It’s “ceremonial deism” at most. Confusing this with someplace like Saudi Arabia, where the clerics have real power of jurisprudence, is absurd. It’s as if, somehow, having “In God We Trust” on our coins is equivalent to courts that impose death penalties for adultery. Not quite! ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-john-mccain-lost-his-mind/659524/99 "2013-05-30T00:05:39Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > You aren’t making a lot of sense here. Does the Anglican Church hold religious court hearings with the power to impose fines, punishment, or even death? Nope. It’s “ceremonial deism” at most. Confusing this with someplace like Saudi Arabia, where the clerics have real power of jurisprudence, is absurd. > > It’s as if, somehow, having “In God We Trust” on our coins is equivalent to courts that impose death penalties for adultery. Not quite! Your comment only makes sense if one defines “secular government” as “non-theocracy”. It doesn’t. Beyond that Saudi Arabia isn’t remotely representative of the Middle East or the Muslim World. Out of the 70 + Muslim countries in the world maybe four or five are theocracies. Anyway this argument is silly. Most western countries aren’t “secular” and dont believe in a seperation of Church and State. I should add there’s nothing wrong with that. Only morons or bigots insist that all religious governments, whether Israel, Canada, Norway, or Iran are equally bad. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-john-mccain-lost-his-mind/659524/100 "2013-05-30T00:14:24Z")
The Onion? Borowitz? Bah - I give you actual news: [Tea Party Labels John McCain ‘Illegal Immigrant’](http://thinkprogress.org/immigration/2013/05/28/2066511/tea-party-immigrant-mccain/#) > [@](#): > > On Tuesday, the Tea Party website ‘Tea Party Nation’ put out an article that labeled Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) an “illegal immigrant” because he had sneaked into Syria to visit rebels fighting against the Bashar al-Assad regime. Although the White House was aware of McCain’s Syrian visit, the article indicated that his visit was virtually the same as undocumented immigration. I don’t know what else I can add to that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-john-mccain-lost-his-mind/659524.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-john-mccain-lost-his-mind/659524.md?page=6)