# Has Liberalism Changed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 23, 2017, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-liberalism-changed/780517 "2017-02-23T00:21:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-liberalism-changed/780517/41 "2017-02-23T19:08:01Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > 1. There are no signs at all that criticism of porn is on the increase on the left. > [@LinusK](#): > > The split between old-school liberals and feminists was still sensitive all the way through the 80’s. It wasn’t until the internet made porn ubiquitous and uncensorable that feminists gave up on it. Now they mostly focus on making women in the sex industry into victims. This 2013 article in _The Economist_ was interesting, although IIRC Iceland, one of the most liberal and feminist countries in the world, did not actually go forward with the ban after all: [Why Does Liberal Iceland Want to Ban Online Pornography?](http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2013/04/economist-explains-why-iceland-ban-pornography) ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-liberalism-changed/780517/42 "2017-02-23T19:14:45Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > What majorities are you referring to, here? Wealthy people? I meant to say that there’s a difference between helping the disadvantaged and hurting the advantaged; in the case of race/gender today, the left wants to do the latter. With commies, the wealthy/middle-class were the advantaged, the proletarians the working class. For today’s Bernie/Corbyn left, white men are the analogue of the Kulaks. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-liberalism-changed/780517/43 "2017-02-23T19:29:03Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I meant to say that there’s a difference between helping the disadvantaged and hurting the advantaged; in the case of race/gender today, the left wants to do the latter. With commies, the wealthy/middle-class were the advantaged, the proletarians the working class. For today’s Bernie/Corbyn left, white men are the analogue of the Kulaks. Well, no, there’s not always a difference. If, say, only white male property owners are allowed to vote, then helping the disadvantaged means allowing them to vote too - which is detrimental to the white male property owners, who now have to share power. In that scenario, there’s no way to help the disadvantaged that won’t hurt the advantaged, or at least feel like it to the advantaged. That said, what exactly are you referring to? What “hurt” is to be inflicted upon white men? I sure haven’t noticed any, but perhaps I’ve missed something. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-liberalism-changed/780517/44 "2017-02-23T19:31:12Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > That said, what exactly are you referring to? What “hurt” is to be inflicted upon white men? I sure haven’t noticed any, but perhaps I’ve missed something. As a straight white guy, I’m also looking for ways I’ve been damaged. I didn’t get into Harvard, but I’ll assume they had other reasons to exclude me. Since then, I’ve had a pretty good ride with my white privilege. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-liberalism-changed/780517/45 "2017-02-23T19:36:50Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > With commies, the wealthy/middle-class were the advantaged, the proletarians the working class. For today’s Bernie/Corbyn left, white men are the analogue of the Kulaks. We’re not in post-Tsarist Russia anymore, Toto. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-liberalism-changed/780517/46 "2017-02-23T19:42:25Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > As a straight white guy, I’m also looking for ways I’ve been damaged. I didn’t get into Harvard, but I’ll assume they had other reasons to exclude me. Since then, I’ve had a pretty good ride with my white privilege. Well, we’re not allowed to treat other ethnicities as if they are inherently worth less than ourselves. This was never a hobby that I wished to take up, but I suppose there are some white guys that are disappointed that their hobby of racism is no longer acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-liberalism-changed/780517/47 "2017-02-23T19:45:01Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I meant to say that there’s a difference between helping the disadvantaged and hurting the advantaged; in the case of race/gender today, the left wants to do the latter. With commies, the wealthy/middle-class were the advantaged, the proletarians the working class. For today’s Bernie/Corbyn left, white men are the analogue of the Kulaks. This is not an accurate representation of any significant portion of liberals or the left. ---
**Author:** ![Doubticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@Doubticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubticus)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-liberalism-changed/780517/48 "2017-02-23T20:18:28Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Is there something especially evil about the majority that they can not have a voice without suppressing others? I had a friend that made this awesome post about the “Black Lives Matter” movement, that illustrates my point perfectly. He said: Responding to “Black Live Matter” with “All Lives Matter” doesn’t mean you’re racist. It does mean you’re tone deaf, though. All too often, it is demonstrated that black lives DON’T matter–not equally, and especially not in matters of justice and authority–so finding fault with someone trying to point out that _very real problem_ by complaining that the words they use in their cry for help aren’t inclusive enough for your tastes is: A. not helpful to them at all. B. needlessly semantic. C. a hurtful diversion of the conversation away from the continuing problem that still hasn’t been fixed. and, yes: D. dismissive, because you’re acting like your umbrage at their choice of words is more important than the repeated loss of life that prompted this whole conversation in the first place. This is quite literally a life and death situation for a lot of people. When someone falls overboard and yells “I need a life preserver!” the appropriate response isn’t to stand on deck and yell back: “We all need life preservers!” ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-liberalism-changed/780517/49 "2017-02-23T20:22:11Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > I’m not particularly impressed with a commentary on Nazism lifted straight from any serious history book that includes the subject. Apparently the only thing Hedges has done that’s noteworthy at all is to apply it to the modern day. Duh. > > (And no, I don’t care that it was done four or five years ago, when there had already been a full term’s worth of racist agitation by the right against Obama.) My problem with what you call ‘racist’ agitation against Mr Obama is that we now have equivalent agitation against Mr Trump. Is this also racist? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-liberalism-changed/780517/50 "2017-02-23T20:23:17Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > My problem with what you call ‘racist’ agitation against Mr Obama is that we now have equivalent agitation against Mr Trump. Is this also racist? Orange isn’t a race. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-liberalism-changed/780517/51 "2017-02-23T20:23:25Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > My problem with what you call ‘racist’ agitation against Mr Obama is that we now have equivalent agitation against Mr Trump. Is this also racist? Prominent Democrats are questioning whether Trump is legitimately an American citizen, and not being slapped down by their fellow Democrats? News to me! ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-liberalism-changed/780517/52 "2017-02-23T20:37:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Prominent Democrats are questioning whether Trump is legitimately an American citizen, and not being slapped down by their fellow Democrats? > > News to me! Its all political theater. What does/did race have to do with it? If anything, Mr Obamas race protected him to some degree from criticism from the left and right. If today we had President Condaleeza Rice doing the sane things as Mr Trump, I highly doubt we would see an equivalent level of dismissal and demonization. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-liberalism-changed/780517/53 "2017-02-23T20:50:26Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Its all political theater. What does/did race have to do with it? If anything, Mr Obamas race protected him to some degree from criticism from the left and right. If today we had President Condaleeza Rice doing the sane things as Mr Trump, I highly doubt we would see an equivalent level of dismissal and demonization. I know! Being black makes everything easier in America, especially politics. That’s why we’ve had so many black Senators and Presidents, and why such a boring, untalented, uncharismatic guy like Obama was able to get elected. If it were a white guy with the same meager talents as Obama, why he wouldn’t even be able to be elected to a city council! ---
**Author:** ![HumbleThinker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@HumbleThinker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumbleThinker)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-liberalism-changed/780517/54 "2017-02-23T20:51:16Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > The Bernie/Hillary split as a convenient example, though not perfect. > Bernie seemed to be a thouroughgoing old school liberal. Hillary was sort of a half-assed new liberal. > > What I’ll call “old school” liberalism had several core principles. > One was support for the working class, combined with opposition to what I’ll call the ownership class - rent seekers, and others who are rich, but don’t work. > Another was support for freedom of speech, combined with the rejection of dogma. > A third was opposition to classification, or different treatment of people, on the basis of race or gender, or religion. MLK’s “I Have A Dream,” is an example. > > There are others, but I’ll leave it there for now. > > New school liberalism, on the other hand, embraces identity politics. To be non-white, non-Christian, or non-male is something to be celebrated. New school liberalism separates people into two groups: the privileged, and under-privileged. They’re identified, not by wealth; but by race, gender, sexual orientation, and religion. To celebrate African American heritage is admirable. Celebrating white heritage is racist. Similarly, “A Day Without Women” is encouraged. “A Day Without Men” is sexist. > > It’s an explicit rejection of MLK’s idea. It creates concepts like “micro-aggressions,” “trigger warnings,” and violent protests against the possibility of someone speaking who is antithetical to new liberalism’s agenda. It is, in other words, not at all friendly toward free speech. > > The dichotomy is not new, exactly. It’s been around at least 30 years. But new liberalism seems to be on the ascendency, and old liberalism seems to be waning. > > So my question is, is this something only I have noticed, or have others noted the same thing? I think you may be overgeneralizing the many strains of liberalism and the social concepts that have historically existed, what you term “old school liberalism,” and the many strains of liberalism and current social concepts that exist now, what you term “new school liberalism.” There will always be people taking ideas in different directions or more or less sticking with traditional conceptions of said idea. So to answer your question, I haven’t noticed that. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-liberalism-changed/780517/55 "2017-02-23T21:01:11Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Giving voice means leveling the playing field. It needs leveling because it’s already skewed in favor of the majority. The people who argue that raising minorities up is persecuting the majority is, in essence, asking to maintain that skew. > > To paraphrase, to someone with advantages, equality feels like persecution. Then why not say leveling the playing field? Her post explicitly said that equality was not the solution. Some people could have a voice and others could not have a voice based on the color of their skin and their sex. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-liberalism-changed/780517/56 "2017-02-23T21:12:11Z")
> [@Doubticus](#): > > I had a friend that made this awesome post about the “Black Lives Matter” movement, that illustrates my point perfectly. > > He said: > > Responding to “Black Live Matter” with “All Lives Matter” doesn’t mean you’re racist. It does mean you’re tone deaf, though. > All too often, it is demonstrated that black lives DON’T matter–not equally, and especially not in matters of justice and authority–so finding fault with someone trying to point out that _very real problem_ by complaining that the words they use in their cry for help aren’t inclusive enough for your tastes is: > > A. not helpful to them at all. > B. needlessly semantic. > C. a hurtful diversion of the conversation away from the continuing problem that still hasn’t been fixed. > and, yes: > D. dismissive, because you’re acting like your umbrage at their choice of words is more important than the repeated loss of life that prompted this whole conversation in the first place. > > This is quite literally a life and death situation for a lot of people. When someone falls overboard and yells “I need a life preserver!” the appropriate response isn’t to stand on deck and yell back: “We all need life preservers!” Responding all lives matter is affirming the common humanity of all people regardless of color. It is affirming that matters about people is not their race but their inherent worth as individuals. As to it being a diversions it is not because Black Lives Matter is about taking a real problem and then begging the question. It assumes that the reason black people are shot by police officers is that the police officers don’t think their lives matter. So the problem is racist cops and teaching them to value the lives of black people will fix the problem. Black Lives Matter protests show how much liberalism has changed. It was once about judging people by the content of their character and now it is about how [white](https://news.grabien.com/story-dnc-chair-candidates-bash-white-people-racially-charged-foru)people need to shut their mouths. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-liberalism-changed/780517/57 "2017-02-23T21:17:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I know! Being black makes everything easier in America, especially politics. That’s why we’ve had so many black Senators and Presidents, and why such a boring, untalented, uncharismatic guy like Obama was able to get elected. If it were a white guy with the same meager talents as Obama, why he wouldn’t even be able to be elected to a city council! Way to address my argument. And Mr Obama did have meager abilities to be a President. He was aloof and missed opportunities to push his agenda. He created the political environment that allowed a barely qualified candidate to get elected. But criticism against his actions and policies were tempered by fears of being labeled racist as did Johnny Ace. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-liberalism-changed/780517/58 "2017-02-23T21:20:48Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Way to address my argument. And Mr Obama did have meager abilities to be a President. He was aloof and missed opportunities to push his agenda. He created the political environment that allowed a barely qualified candidate to get elected. > > But criticism against his actions and policies were tempered by fears of being labeled racist as did Johnny Ace. And thus all the celebrated black senators and presidents we’ve had, since they are treated so kindly. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-liberalism-changed/780517/59 "2017-02-23T21:26:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And thus all the celebrated black senators and presidents we’ve had, since they are treated so kindly. And again you do not address anything I have argued. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2017, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-liberalism-changed/780517/60 "2017-02-23T21:32:51Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > And again you do not address anything I have argued. I’m agreeing with you! After all, it’s not like there were years of prominent Republicans and conservatives who, with zero evidence, questioned his citizenship, or a Republican congressman who, say, interrupted a state of the Union address and shouted that he was a liar, or the biggest and most successful conservative radio hosts routinely questioning his patriotism. I mean, if that occurred, plus a lot of other stuff, then maybe your argument would be utterly ridiculous. But only if stuff like that occurred. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-liberalism-changed/780517.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-liberalism-changed/780517.md?page=4)