# Has "Lost" Lost It? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 14, 2009, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-lost-lost-it/493048 "2009-04-14T08:18:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-lost-lost-it/493048/61 "2009-04-15T17:32:28Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > You should quit watching then. As I said earlier, people who don’t enjoy the “ride” of the show and are just waiting for some pay-off are going to be sorely disappointed. Don’t waste your time. I’ve already relegated it to a corner of my computer monitor while I go about other tasks. It allows to stay informed at the water-cooler without having to put up with the inane characters and plot “twists.” ETA: I also wish the show would do away with the low-budget, cheesy cgi. The smoke, in particular, constantly breaks (for me) any immersion the show might have had going, at that point. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-lost-lost-it/493048/62 "2009-04-15T17:37:31Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Well of course they’re going to say otherwise. What else are they gonna say? “Yeah, we’re just stringing you along. We don’t really have anywhere to take this. We’re gonna go totally last season X-files on your ass”? They were pretty candid that that was exactly what they had to do in season 2 before they got a committment for a hard end date from ABC. Not surprisingly, that is when the show meandered. Since then it has been pretty focused, imho. > [@](#): > > Some people say the details aren’t that important and that it’s a story about characters. In season 1, I could see that. But the characters don’t even make much sense anymore half the time. Every time a character does something, ask yourself “is there a plausible motivation for them to be doing this?” and frequently there isn’t. The characters have become plot devices to move the story from point to point. I agree with you to a limited extent here, but I’m more willing to forgive that because I think that the over all story lines are cool and it’s not so bad as to be unbelievable. > [@](#): > > Even the basic premise of this season, having to go back to the Island - why is Jack there? Kate? Hurley? > > For them, it seems that they basically had this conversation. > > “We Have To Go Back” > > “What? Are you crazy? We barely got out of there alive.” > > “We Have To Go Back” > > “…Others. Smoke Monster. Polar Bears. Remember any of this?” > > “We Have To Go Back” > > “Oh. Okay.” We will just have to agree to disagree here. They spent a whole season setting up Jack losing it, replete with him being “haunted” by his dead dad. That’s pretty good motivation for me. Ditto for Hurley, he kept getting visited by dead people. Sun wanted to save her husband. Said got dragged back agaisnt his will. The only one who’s motivation didn’t make much sense is Kate, and I’ve always considered her the most weakly written of the main cast members. But, seeing as they have built a pretty good track record of Kate doing dumb things when she is upset, I’m willing to give that one a pass. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-lost-lost-it/493048/63 "2009-04-15T17:43:50Z")
> [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > As someone mentioned up-thread, how does that explain Ben, who the creators conceded was only supposed to be in a few episodes, has become a mainstay (and a pretty damn prominent character) on the show? > > I don’t actually expect you to answer that, because obviously neither of us are privy to what actually goes on behind the scenes. But in my perception, it seems evident they’re making a lot of this shit up as you go. Oh, and didn’t Charlie actually say he couldn’t swim at some point, but then was seen diving underwater a season later? Hmmm. Pretty easy to explain, actually. They already had the character of Ben planned out. When “Henry Gale” got captured he was just supposed to be one of the Others, a al Eathan or Mr. Friendly. The actor was so good they said, “We’ll just make this guy be Ben, not some minor Other.” I don’t know for sure if that’s what happened, but it seems perfectly logical to me. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-lost-lost-it/493048/64 "2009-04-15T17:55:10Z")
> [@MichaelQReilly](#): > > I don’t know for sure if that’s what happened, but it seems perfectly logical to me. Fair enough, but pretty much any explanation would be “logical” by Lost standards 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-lost-lost-it/493048/65 "2009-04-15T18:06:20Z")
> [@Plynck](#): > > Perhaps you should alert a moderator to put “Open Spoilers” in the thread title and not read any farther. These are events that have taken place in aired episodes, some of them years ago. > > This is a huge spoiler that I read on a completely unrelated site. The text within my spoiler is relatively innocuous, but the link I provide there will lead to some speculation as to the internal mysteries of the Island: > > [This](http://origin.avclub.com/articles/michio-kaku,26424/) is an interview with a physicist who is often consulted to assist movie and television writers with scientific accuracy. He makes reference to “Lost”, and off-handedly mentions a theory. I can’t tell from the article whether that theory is the writers’ own plot line, or whether he is instead commenting on a theory put forth by the magazine in which he is writing. Follow the link at your own risk. Right now I’m wishing I hadn’t. Wow…you know, that is a totally AWESOME explanation! If it’s really what they intend, I could live with that easily. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-lost-lost-it/493048/66 "2009-04-15T18:07:32Z")
> [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > Fair enough, but pretty much any explanation would be “logical” by Lost standards 😉 Actually, I think that’s part of the reason that I’m willing to cut the writers a decent amount of slack. They have introduced so many things (i.e. time travel, ghosts, monsters) that usually turn into spectacular messes, but have largely avoided the usual pitfalls. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-lost-lost-it/493048/67 "2009-04-15T18:19:04Z")
> [@MichaelQReilly](#): > > Actually, I think that’s part of the reason that I’m willing to cut the writers a decent amount of slack. They have introduced so many things (i.e. time travel, ghosts, monsters) that usually turn into spectacular messes, but have largely avoided the usual pitfalls. Have they? Perhaps you’re right–I’m not even sure what the “usual pitfalls” would entail; maybe they’re all new ones? ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-lost-lost-it/493048/68 "2009-04-15T18:25:00Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > “We have to go [way across the island]” > > “Why?” > > “There’s no time to explain, just trust me” > > “But it’s a 12 hour walk, you’d have plenty of time to explain…” > > “JUST TRUST ME AND SILENTLY WALK ACROSS THE ISLAND WITH ME! IT’S HOW IT’S SUPPOSED TO BE!” The other version of this is when character A _does_ explain to character B what’s going on and why they should walk across the island, but then demands that they don’t tell anyone else because it would freak everyone out. Really? After smoke monsters, polar bears, hostiles, submarines, hatches, prehistoric statues, and miracle healing, we’re worried about freaking the nameless-lost-extras out? How in the dark are these guys? Either that or the reason why they can’t tell anyone is because “we can’t trust anyone else” But then when it blows up in their face and everyone knows about it by the end of the episode, they proceed to do the _same damn thing_ two episodes later. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-lost-lost-it/493048/69 "2009-04-15T18:56:25Z")
> [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > Have they? Perhaps you’re right–I’m not even sure what the “usual pitfalls” would entail; maybe they’re all new ones? Well the most obvious one I had in mind was introducing all sorts of paradoxes via time travel. ---
**Author:** ![TooSchoolforCool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tooschoolforcool/32/19621_2.png) [@TooSchoolforCool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TooSchoolforCool)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-lost-lost-it/493048/70 "2009-04-15T20:15:13Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > I started watching Lost about a month ago. A friend gave me the 1st 2 seasons on DVD. WHAT A GREAT SHOW!! > > I was reading this thread when I noticed there are unboxed spoilers. Locke’s dad is on the Island? Jack and Sawyer reverse roles? I didn’t need to know that…:mad: Dude, the thread was about lost having lost it now that we’re into season 5. 🙂 Glad you’re enjoying it though. You really haven’t been spoiled all that much if those were the only two things you saw. BUT STOP READING. WHY DID YOU EVEN READ THIS REPLY YOU SILLY PERSON! ---
**Author:** ![TooSchoolforCool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tooschoolforcool/32/19621_2.png) [@TooSchoolforCool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TooSchoolforCool)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-lost-lost-it/493048/71 "2009-04-15T20:21:46Z")
> [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > If I had to choose a spot when my faith in the series started to wane, it was after they blew open the hatch and discovered–GASP–some dude typing away on a keyboard. Lame as fucking hell. I should have quit then. Opinions differ obviously. I thought this was a great development because it broadened the show considerably: it was a way better reveal than having the hatch be full of aliens or some other stupid nonsense. When you look back on everything we’ve learned about the Island, you can see them inching into its history, and the Swan is a strange and decrepit machine that gave the characters a great foil, particularly in the way it played out in the end (with Locke’s loss of faith clashing against Eko and the way that Locke and Desmond intertwined). > [@mshar253](#): > > Regarding the original question, I don’t think he ever did learn to swim. When he went to the “Looking Glass,” IIRC, he jumped into the water with extreme apprehension, but he willed himself to do it anyway. Also (again, IIRC) there was a point in the show where someone was drowning and Jack jumped into the water because Charlie was unsuccessful in being able to reach the person. As I remember, a) he had a weight belt, so he was basically sinking and then moving underwater, not swimming in the sense you’d worry about when not knowing how to swim (i.e. trying to move through water AND stay above it breathe) b) he never expected to come back up to air anyway. He probably did learn to swim better on the Island, but we know that he still ultimately sucked as a swimmer even towards the end because Desmond’s future-vision saw him drowning if he tried to save Claire. His dad did teach him how to swim, though it’s certainly possible to suck as a swimmer in the ocean even if you’ve paddled about in a pool a little. I didn’t catch this, but apparently in that flashback someone can be heard off screen shouting “Come on, Desmond!” > [@MichaelQReilly](#): > > They were pretty candid that that was exactly what they had to do in season 2 before they got a committment for a hard end date from ABC. Not surprisingly, that is when the show meandered. Since then it has been pretty focused, imho. Those meanders were more about killing time than not knowing where they were headed though, as far as I can tell. Like the flashback things I keep harping about: they ran out of the CORE flashback insights they wanted to convey about the characters, and ended up doing a bunch that were sort of filler, just replaying themes they’d already developed. ---
**Author:** ![Prox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/da6949/32.png) [@Prox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prox)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-lost-lost-it/493048/72 "2009-04-15T21:41:19Z")
> [@TooSchoolforCool](#): > > Give some examples. It’s been years since I watched the show, so I don’t really remember many. Except for being the end of the episode cliff hanger, The Black Rock fiasco qualifies. Why would the French lady lead people miles without mentioning it was a ship? One thing that made it obvious the writers were making it up (at least early) is the caves. There was a sort of mini arc in the first season about moving to the caves, but it was dropped with no explanation. I guess that was eventually adapted to be part of the hatch plot. ---
**Author:** ![TooSchoolforCool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tooschoolforcool/32/19621_2.png) [@TooSchoolforCool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TooSchoolforCool)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-lost-lost-it/493048/73 "2009-04-15T22:50:35Z")
Those are both actually pretty good ones, and I got nothing really in retort to either of them other than that they simply didn’t bother me at all, and still don’t particularly. French lady is crazy. No one had any idea to ask, thinking that the BR was, well, a rock. And the caves. I dunno. They pretty much didn’t mention them after the hatch. I assume that the main reason for moving back out on the beach was that it was near where all the food and supplies from the hatch were closest to, but they never really went into it, you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-lost-lost-it/493048/74 "2009-04-16T00:29:06Z")
> [@TooSchoolforCool](#): > > Those are both actually pretty good ones, and I got nothing really in retort to either of them other than that they simply didn’t bother me at all, and still don’t particularly. > > French lady is crazy. No one had any idea to ask, thinking that the BR was, well, a rock. > And the caves. I dunno. They pretty much didn’t mention them after the hatch. I assume that the main reason for moving back out on the beach was that it was near where all the food and supplies from the hatch were closest to, but they never really went into it, you’re right. Hurley mentioned the caves once later on. I can’t remember why, but he said he was gonna move to the caves because no one lives there anymore. ---
**Author:** ![flex727](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/258eb7/32.png) [@flex727](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flex727)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-lost-lost-it/493048/75 "2009-04-16T00:30:40Z")
In my opinion, Lost is the greatest television drama series of all time. It requires more attention and thought than other TV shows and does not lend itself to casual viewing, which is why many do not like it, but it has more depth and quality than any show I have ever seen. I say this, not as a Lost fanatic or fanboy, but as a viewer who has watched decades of television and find this particular show to be amazing in the way it engages viewers who are willing to participate to the depth required. It is the first show to move to the next level - call it TV 2.0 - where there is feedback and communication, in near real time, between the audience and the producers/writers. There is a whole 'nother level of participation and engagement beyond simply watching the show - there are clues and other substance (e.g. “whispers” that are reverse-tracked) that the average viewer could not know of without participation of the internet community. I am simply amazed at what this show does and has accomplished. It’s definitely a pioneering effort. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-lost-lost-it/493048/76 "2009-04-16T00:41:42Z")
> [@flex727](#): > > In my opinion, Lost is the greatest television drama series of all time. It requires more attention and thought than other TV shows and does not lend itself to casual viewing, which is why many do not like it, but it has more depth and quality than any show I have ever seen. I say this, not as a Lost fanatic or fanboy, but as a viewer who has watched decades of television and find this particular show to be amazing in the way it engages viewers who are willing to participate to the depth required. It is the first show to move to the next level - call it TV 2.0 - where there is feedback and communication, in near real time, between the audience and the producers/writers. There is a whole 'nother level of participation and engagement beyond simply watching the show - there are clues and other substance (e.g. “whispers” that are reverse-tracked) that the average viewer could not know of without participation of the internet community. I am simply amazed at what this show does and has accomplished. It’s definitely a pioneering effort. Yup, that all is pretty much true. Where we differ is whether that actually improves the show. I used to (and still do, to some extent, such as my reading the Lost threads somewhat) kept up on everything outside of the show which offered “insight”–the only problem was I found none of it to be really meaningful, especially considering much of it is fan wankery. In fact, I would ultimately consider it a distraction from what the show should be. The fact that the show depends on this suggests the writers are actually piss-poor storytellers, and have conceived a universe so unnecessisarily convoluted, that it’s simply lost on most viewers (as its yearly declining ratings might imply). It’s cool you dig that though, but I would find TV to be a very exhausting medium if other shows were to adopt such (poor, imo) techniques. ETA: I would love to see a “Phantom Edit” version of Lost. A cliff notes version without all the bullshit. I’m reasonably confident the show could be summed up in a seasons’ worth of episodes, or maybe even much less, and be more entertaining to boot. ---
**Author:** ![TooSchoolforCool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tooschoolforcool/32/19621_2.png) [@TooSchoolforCool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TooSchoolforCool)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-lost-lost-it/493048/77 "2009-04-16T03:26:46Z")
Again, disagree totally. I watched most of Lost straight through with zero “fan-wankery.” I think it holds up as a story on its own, precisely because it’s so thoughtful about it’s characters, and allows the weird mythology to inform THAT, rather than the other way around. Again, M. Night Shamylan obsessives are going to be annoyed at the lack of “answers” by the end of a given hour, but the story and character arcs are rewarding and amazingly fun if you simply let yourself get involved in them, no question in my mind. And the answers do seem to be coming together in a truly interesting manner as well. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-lost-lost-it/493048/78 "2009-04-16T03:29:25Z")
Describing anyone who is unhappy 5 years of increasingly convoluted mysteries that may indicate the writers just keep painting themselves further in a corner as “obsessives” is fanboyish defense. And there are those that disagree that it’s some amazing character piece, considering that the characters are inconsistent and totally at the whims of what’s needed to advance the plot - the plot that apparently doesn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![TooSchoolforCool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tooschoolforcool/32/19621_2.png) [@TooSchoolforCool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TooSchoolforCool)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-lost-lost-it/493048/79 "2009-04-16T03:34:36Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Describing anyone who is unhappy 5 years of increasingly convoluted mysteries that may indicate the writers just keep painting themselves further in a corner as “obsessives” is fanboyish defense. Blah blah blah. You don’t like the story they’re telling, fine. But looking back, it really doesn’t seem that convoluted at all. Getting to where it’s going has certainly involved some stalling for time, but the overall picture is neither crazy nor unfocused. > [@](#): > > And there are those that disagree that it’s some amazing character piece, considering that the characters are inconsistent and totally at the whims of what’s needed to advance the plot - the plot that apparently doesn’t matter. Again, if you don’t buy the characters, fine. But it’s also perfectly possible to buy them and their motivations and decisions, and at this point it feels like you’re just cheating yourself out of the fun with a bunch of pointless nitpicks. Apply your standard to virtually any drama, and you could end up complaining about the Godfather just as vehemently and bitterly. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-lost-lost-it/493048/80 "2009-04-16T03:51:47Z")
> [@TooSchoolforCool](#): > > Apply your standard to virtually any drama, and you could end up complaining about the Godfather just as vehemently and bitterly. Well, you gotta admit, the horse head made no sense. Somebody had to kill a horse, saw off its head, carry the thing upstairs, enter Woltz’s room, place the thing under the sheets… and they had to do it in such a manner that a. Nobody heard or saw a thing, and b. Woltz didn’t wake up when the head was put in the same bed where he was sleeping, and c. Spill not a drop of blood except under the sheets That alone proves the writers had no idea what the hell they were doing. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-lost-lost-it/493048.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-lost-lost-it/493048.md?page=5)