# Has Obama spent a million dollars to hide his birth certificate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877 "2009-08-09T22:44:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/241 "2010-08-03T00:56:52Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Hospital records are kept forever. > > So are birth certificates. > > … > > The hospital basement would have all the detail you need for anyone actually born in a Honolulu hospital in 1961. If only this were true, my life would be much simpler. As a genealogy researcher I can attest that hospital records are not kept forever; often they are destroyed after as little as 40 years. Birth certificates also have a habit of vanishing and getting lost, misplaced, being damaged by water, even in one case eaten by mice. I have people within my own family in the 20th century for whom no birth certificate can be found. I have relatives who stayed in the hospital for 3+ weeks and died there, for which there is no record whatsoever (other than the newspaper reports and family memories). I don’t speak as to whether Obama is a citizen or not, but let’s not think that records like birth certificates are treated like gold. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/242 "2010-08-03T00:56:59Z")
Don123 writes: \> Palin also put her birth records on public file as being born in Alaska to USA \> parents. Don123, you never do any research, do you? Palin was born in Idaho. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/243 "2010-08-03T00:57:15Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > A “Certificate of Live Birth” is not a “birth certificate”. My original birth certificate, from Maryland in 1957, says “Certificate of Live Birth”, as does the copy I got from the state in 2002. You know what does say “Birth Certificate”? The completely unofficial, suitable for framing document the hospital gave my mom as a momento. Are you delusional? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/244 "2010-08-03T01:12:33Z")
> [@Don123](#): > > Obama has brought this high standard of suspicion on to himself. He could have gone to Hawaii, brought out the document, put it before the press and/or had a professional unbiased examiner take a look at it, and NONE of this would have happened. This has already happened, **Don123** , and people who believe what you believe have not responded to any of it. That’s why only a tiny minority of people can take these arguments seriously. Obama made his own birth certificate public early in the primary campaign in response to rumors that his middle name was really Muhammad. Suddenly there were rumors he hadn’t been born in the U.S., and in response Later [a copy of the birth certificate was posted at an Obama campaign website](http://www.fightthesmears.com/articles/5/birthcertificate.html). This did not kill the rumors either. People said a certificate of live birth is not the same as a birth certificate; they said there was no seal on the certificate; they said the copy was fake. The campaign then let people [see their copy of the birth certificate](http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html). [They took pictures.](http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_3.jpg) It has the appropriate [Hawaii certification](http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_9.jpg). [It has the raised seal.](http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_1.jpg) They showed [the certificate number.](http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_5.jpg) [The governor and the director of the Hawaii state department of both said they have seen the real version and it’s legit.](http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp) And [announcements of his birth](http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/obama-1961-birth-announcement-from-honolulu-advertiser0000.gif) appeared [in two newspapers](http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/ObamaBirthStarBulletin.jpg), as we all know. Any contention that he’s refusing to answer questions is bullshit. This is more than enough evidence for any reasonable person to conclude that the birth certificate is real and that he was born in Hawaii. Instead you’re demanding forgery experts. Who forged the certificate and when - it doesn’t matter. If experts looked at it, there would be a problem with their objectivity or credentials. Or with some analysis technique they didn’t use which suddenly all of Obama’s critics are experts about, and which would finally settle the question once and for all. But since it wasn’t used everything is still up in the air. You might deny this but we can see it’s true. Because this is not about evidence and it’s not about birth certificates. It’s about denial. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/245 "2010-08-03T01:14:05Z")
Oh, God no, this again? I keep hearing this bugaboo that won’t die about how Obama has spent umpty-gazillon sooper-secret dollars hiding his birth certificate. Obama has spent approximately nothing hiding his birth certificate. Let me repeat that for clarity: Obama has spent approximately _nothing_ hiding his birth certificate. This is because every single challenge filed by Orly Taitz against Obama has been against him in his official capacity as President and accordingly answered by the Department of Justice, as part of their jobs, for nothing other than what it costs the taxpayer to have the Department of Justice diverted from their usual work. Even then the lead federal attorney defending Orly’s latest entertaining fiasco told reporters a short whle back that defending against Orly’s claims has been nothing more than a nuisance: > [@](#): > > Roger West, an assistant US attorney in the central district of California, represented the government in a lawsuit brought by Taitz on behalf of perennial presidential candidate Alan Keyes, asking the court to require that Obama prove he is a natural-born citizen. The case has dragged on for more than a year, mostly because Taitz, a graduate of an online, unaccredited law school, failed to serve the defendants. Judge David O. Carter dismissed the suit in October for a host of reasons, but Taitz has appealed. Yet West says that far from bleeding his office, Taitz and her co-counsel Gary Kreep have assembled such a weak case that he hasn’t had to spend much time on it. “I filed one motion that didn’t take too long, we’ve had two hearings and that’s it,” he says. “It’s not like we’ve devoted some sort of task force to this.” [What’s Obama’s Birther Legal Bill?](http://motherjones.com/politics/2010/01/whats-obamas-birther-legal-bill) Seriously, how could it possibly be expensive? Every single lawsuit she makes is disposed of in summary judgment! She gets $20,000 in sanctions for her lawsuits! If anything, they’re profitable! Stop, for the love of God, stop! Obama spends nothing! The lawsuits accomplish nothing! For God’s sake, focus on the midterms or something! ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/246 "2010-08-03T01:45:29Z")
**Don123** , how’s it coming with those cites showing Obama paying legal fees to avoid showing his birth certificate? You know, the ones you’ve been asked for at least three times, to support your own statements? AKA the subject of this thread? **Susanann** , feel free to provide them too, if you have them. Assuming you’re actually a different person from **Don123**. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/247 "2010-08-03T01:54:26Z")
> [@Don123](#): > > Also to clear up another point as to attorney fees. In my state they do not work cheap, and for high powered cases the price goes up 100 fold as the entire law firm is hired and the clock never stops running 24/7— or the most that the law will award to force payment. Depends on the field of practice. I’m in personal injury right now – contingency fees only; if we win the case we get a share of what we recover, otherwise nothing; no hourly billing. Other fields have different fee arrangements. Public-sector lawyers – including public defenders, public prosecutors, and attorneys of the U.S. Solicitor General’s Office – work on straight salary, no case-specific or client-specific fees involved. > [@Don123](#): > > I hold my ground that Obama has spent at least a million bucks in his legal defense. See [post #172.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12755855&postcount=172) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/248 "2010-08-03T02:01:47Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > So explain why Obama’s the only president of the United States ever to have shown his birth certificate. . > > obama never showed us his birth certificate. > > obama does not have a birth certificate :rolleyes: Some people still have their BC originally issued in a drawer somewhere, maybe somewhere in their parents’ house; some don’t. If you write the relevant authority in the county of your birth and request a copy of your birth certificate, you’ll get something in the mail that might be a photocopy of the original, or might be something like Obama posted on the Internet during the campaign – depending on the state, not depending on what you request. If the latter, **you** have no authority to “release your birth certificate,” the relevant authorities have already **done** that. What’s done with the “vault copy” **is not up to you.** It might be digitized and destroyed at some point; depends on the state, perhaps even on the county. (Aren’t RWs always touting the virtues of federalism and local-government autonomy?) ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/249 "2010-08-03T02:01:54Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > > [@Susanann](#): > > > > A “Certificate of Live Birth” is not a “birth certificate”. > > My original birth certificate, from Maryland in 1957, says “Certificate of Live Birth”, as does the copy I got from the state in 2002. > > You know what does say “Birth Certificate”? The completely unofficial, suitable for framing document the hospital gave my mom as a momento. > > Are you delusional? I keep saying that it’s a total, total myth that there’s a difference between “Certificate of Live Birth” and “Birth Certificate”. Some states use one term, other states use the other. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/250 "2010-08-03T02:04:11Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > > [@Don123](#): > > > > …assonated by angry blacks. > > I hate when that happens. Dem cullo’d folks do hab a talent fo’ poetry. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/251 "2010-08-03T02:11:38Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > **Don123** , how’s it coming with those cites showing Obama paying legal fees to avoid showing his birth certificate? You know, the ones you’ve been asked for at least three times, to support your own statements? AKA the subject of this thread? > > **Susanann** , feel free to provide them too, if you have them. Assuming you’re actually a different person from **Don123**. Why ,they spent over a million dollars apiece covering up his birth certificate. They have to get their moneys worth. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/252 "2010-08-03T03:05:47Z")
I would say that arguing with a birther is like arguing with a brick wall, except that would insult the reasoning ability of brick walls. ---
**Author:** ![Cinebar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Cinebar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cinebar)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/253 "2010-08-03T03:08:43Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#): > > I would say that arguing with a birther is like arguing with a brick wall, except that would insult the reasoning ability of brick walls. No shit. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/254 "2010-08-03T03:26:25Z")
I wonder of Don and Sus would do us the favor of admitting they were wrong? One of the defining characteristics of Birthers seems to be that they have no intention of admitting that something they said is incorrect, even when shown directly. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/255 "2010-08-03T03:26:35Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Assuming you’re actually a different person from **Don123**. Do not accuse other posters of being sock puppets. If you have a serious reason to believe that about a poster, (beyond simply thinking that you don’t like their similar arguments), then Report the situation. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/256 "2010-08-03T11:29:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > [@Don123](#): > > > > Perhaps you can answer a question that I am not able to find. Who is qualified to bring court suit against a person, or an organization as the Democratic Party, running for president that has doubtful born citizenship? > > I’m a lawyer and I’ve been following this business from the beginning, and all I can tell you is, no one seems to know. There are no relevant statutes or constitutional provisions as to who would have such standing. Nor is there any precedent for challenging the native-citizenship status of a POTUS or presidential candidate. Given the way the Founders set up the Electoral College as a filter between direct democracy and the Presidency, most likely they saw it as the electors’ job to satisfy themselves that they were electing an eligible candidate. They have made and rendered their determination. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/257 "2010-08-03T12:02:39Z")
> [@Don123](#): > > I never said obama’s mother denounced his US citizenship, but the question remains can a person with duel citizenship be president? > > The answer from this legal article is clearly NO. This assertion is idiotic even by birther standards. “I shall issue a decree making all Americans also citizens of Kookistan! They shall have NO ONE eligible to be their President and fall into CHAOS!!! MWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!” ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/258 "2010-08-03T12:05:16Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > TLDR TSDR (Too Stupid, Didn’t Read) ---
**Author:** ![Don123](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19adc/32.png) [@Don123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don123)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/259 "2010-08-03T12:37:44Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Don, you know anything about Civics and American History? You know this guy named George Washington? Father of our Country? Great and good man, Mr. Washington. For more reasons than you can possibly imagine. > > Now, he and the rest of the Founding Fathers formed the first government formed by the great Constitution of the United States of America. And one of the things they worked out was how the courts were going to work. And one of the things they did involved the first Supreme Court. You know, led by John Jay. Now, one day in 1790, Alexander Hamilton… you’ve heard of him, right? Asked Mr. Jay if he would give his opinion on the constitutionality of legislation involving the US assuming the debts of the states. What Mr. Jay said was, the Court’s business was only involving actual cases it had a right to hold before it, not over things it did not have any business mucking in, like potential legislation. > > This is what standing and jurisdiction is. Obviously you do not have a clue of what is legal standing and Jurisdiction —so let me help you out and do your home work. [http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/s064.htm](http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/s064.htm) STANDING, legal definition: The legal right to initiate a lawsuit. To do so, a person must be sufficiently affected by the matter at hand, and there must be a case or controversy that can be resolved by legal action.There are three requirements for Article III standing: (1) injury in fact, which means an invasion of a legally protected interest that is (a) concrete and particularized, and (b) actual or imminent, not conjectural or hypothetical; (2) a causal relationship between the injury and the challenged conduct, which means that the injury fairly can be traced to the challenged action of the defendant, and has not resulted from the independent action of some third party not before the court; and (3) a likelihood that the injury will be redressed by a favorable decision, which means that the prospect of obtaining relief from the injury as a result of a favorable ruling is not too speculative. Lujan v. Defenders of Wildlife, 112 S. Ct. 2130, 2136 (1992) (Lujan). The party invoking federal jurisdiction bears the burden of establishing each of these elements. Id. In deciding whether xxx has standing, a court must consider the allegations of fact contained in xxx’s declaration and other affidavits in support of his assertion of standing. See Warth v. Seldin, 422 U.S. 490, 501 (1974) (Warth). see also Warth, 422 U.S. at 501 (when addressing motion to dismiss for lack of standing, both district court and court of appeals must accept as true all material allegations of the complaint and must construe the complaint in favor of the party claiming standing). Standing is founded "in concern about the proper–and properly limited–role of the courts in a democratic society. " Warth, 422 U.S. at 498. When an individual seeks to avail himself of the federal courts to determine the validity of a legislative action, he must show that he “is immediately in danger of sustaining a direct injury.” Ex parte Levitt, 302 U.S. 633, 634 (1937). This requirement is necessary to ensure that "federal courts reserve their judicial power for `concrete legal issues, presented in actual cases, not abstractions.’ " Associated General Contractors of California v. Coalition for Economic Equity, 950 F.2d 1401, 1406 (9th Cir. 1991) (quoting United Public Workers, 330 U.S. at 89), cert. denied, 112 S. Ct. 1670 (1992). National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA), 42 U.S.C. S 4331, et seq. [[shortened]] > **[lectlaw.com](http://www.lectlaw.com/def/j013.htm)** JURISDICTION A power constitutionally conferred upon a judge or magistrate, to take cognizance of and decide causes according to law and to carry his sentence into execution. The tract of land or district within which a judge or magistrate has jurisdiction, is called his territory and his power in relation to his territory is called his territorial jurisdiction. Every act of jurisdiction exercised by a judge without his territory, either by pronouncing sentence or carrying it into execution, is null. An inferior court has no jurisdiction beyond what is expressly delegated. [[shortened]] ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/260 "2010-08-03T13:07:54Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Obama spent (over) a million dollars hiding the fact that there is no birth certificate of obama being born in Hawaii. Please provide your calculations and any documentation which led you to this figure. Thank you. > [@Susanann](#): > > 1. obama was **not** born in Hawaii Please provide any evidence you have located which supports this assertion. Thank you. > [@Susanann](#): > > 1. Obama’s father was \*\*not \*\*an American citizen, but rather, his father was a British citizen which prevented obama from being an American Please provide a quote from the Constitution which states that one parent being a non-US citizen precludes a child from being a US citizen by birth. Thank you. > [@Susanann](#): > > A “Certificate of Live Birth” is **not** a “birth certificate”. Please explain (cites would be great too) the actual difference between these two, and why a “birth certificate” would serve as legal proof that a person was born at a particular time in a particular place, yet a “certificate of live birth” does not serve as legal proof of such. Thank you. > [@Susanann](#): > > John McCain eagerly, quickly, and thoroughly gave us all the documentation and proof of his birth records. He also gave us his military, school, and medical records. Please provide a link to these documents which John McCain has provided. Thank you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877.md?page=14)