# Has Obama spent a million dollars to hide his birth certificate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877 "2009-08-09T22:44:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/561 "2010-08-05T13:26:21Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > And to further clear up your ambiguity, read my post… I said you weren’t an American. Sheeesh! You should have phrased it more clearly. I believe that you knew I wasn’t American, but consider the sentence fragment “…not being an American, like yourself…” It is plausible to me that someone could read this and think “like” didn’t mean you and I were alike (in our non-American-ness) but that I and an American were alike (in our American-ness). I’ve seen similar phrasing elsewhere with the latter intent, though usually it’s more blatantly derisive i.e. “…not being an idiot, like yourself…” It’s of no significance, just thought I’d make it clear, especially since I’ve lost my location tag and posters assuming I’m American are not uncommon around here. It is, in any case, not particularly relevant to the Obama discussion. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/562 "2010-08-05T13:54:38Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > > > I know. I’m dying to be unleashed in the Pit for this one. I’m just too lazy to start the thread myself. > > Unfortunately, I don’t have the time to write a sufficiently bile-spewing OP, and it would really not suffice to do a lukewarm job on a topic this ripe. [Here you go](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=573540), ya lazy hump, ya. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/563 "2010-08-05T13:56:13Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > > [@Marley23](#): > > > > And where I come from it’s called insulting and moronic. If you want to tell people they have their tongues in Barack Obama’s ass because they disagree with you, do it in the Pit. > > Btw, if you want to call me a moron, do it in the Pit in future, ya know, just for fairness’s sake? I’m running out of patience with you. Drop this now. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/564 "2010-08-05T13:57:40Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > > [@Revtim](#): > > > > It may or may not have originated from the Queen Birther herself, Orly Taitz… > > Orly Taitz is an attorney? What a sad, sad attestation to the quality of legal education in the U.S. when she can secure a law degree. How does someone rely on her as a legal representative when, apparently, she has absolutely no acumen for even basic research, a lawyer’s most fundamental and important function? I despair for the legal profession. What is her argument against the posted certificate on Fight the Smears? I don’t feel like wading through all that drivel, so a I would appreciate a direct link. > > ETA: And a dentist!? Oh my. Orly Taitz has made about three hundred arguments against the posted certificate on [fightthesmears.com](http://fightthesmears.com), mostly on behalf of American servicemen who are pissed about being sent to Iraq. Typically, they start with, “it’s fake!” and end with “… and here’s his real Kenyan birth certificate”. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I believe there are sufficient doubts for it to be allowed to be investigated fully, without the hindrance of courts, who should actually be assisting the verification to their fullest ability. What doubts? You think a couple of crackpots should be able to shut down our government for a few weeks while we confirm something that has already been confirmed beyond all possible doubt for a rational person? Why don’t we freeze NASA funding while we investigate the fake moon landing conspiracy theory? > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Here’s a question: if Obama had been born in any other state than Hawaii, would he be having this same kerfuffle, or do all states have the same rules with regards to birth documentation? > > Oh, and where is this copy of the newspaper with his birth announcement in it? Is it an actual physical copy, and are there other copies of it? > > And by “other copies”, I mean other issues that were sold on that same day. That’s a better question. [Here you go](http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Obama_1961_birth_announcement_from_Honolulu_Advertiser). You can do your own googling for other copies, but I’m inclined to believe that no sane individual collects Hawaiian newspaper clippings from 1961. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/565 "2010-08-05T14:16:06Z")
[ > [@Don123](#): > > Go here: > > [http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/site1/hrs/searchhrs.asp?query=birth&currpage=1](http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/site1/hrs/searchhrs.asp?query=birth&currpage=1) > and then click on HRS\_0338-0017\_0005.htm > > Context: Judicial procedure to establish facts of birth. > > In the laws it shows the director can change information, and delete information with latitude to use his best judgment and in accordance with state laws, court orders, or police action. Examples are given, but not limited. This page does not say anything remotely close to that. And if only applies to people who file a delayed certificate of birth that is later rejected. ([Here’s a working link.](http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0017_0005.htm)) It does not say anything about changing records. And Obama’s birth certificate was filed four days after he was born. > [@](#): > > You may have seen this before. It is a photo of two copies of birth records one is suppose to be Obama. On Obama’s at the bottom it says “any alterations invalidates this certificate” then there is a big blotch mark at the top destroying the numbers. OK, I’m impressed. Ha ha ha, that is so funny it makes me giggle. I’ve linked over and over to a copy where the numbers are visible. [Here it is again.](http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_2.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/566 "2010-08-05T14:18:31Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > A person who works in one of the most allegedly trustworthy establishments in the USA, has serious enough doubts that he hires a PI, who then comes back with a report that isn’t exactly glowingly in Obama’s favour. First off, he is purportedly a CIA agent who retired right before Obama took office. We don’t know if that’s true. (Just like I don’t know if that’s really the Hawaiian law on birth certificates.) Second, since when do _you_ think the CIA is trustworthy? And third, Obama has not covered up anything about his birth. The information that is available is out there _because he asked for copies so he could make them public._ ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/567 "2010-08-05T14:25:59Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’ve linked over and over to a copy where the numbers are visible. [Here it is again.](http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_2.jpg) C’mon **Marley**! This is the digital age. Such things are easy to fake, and this one isn’t even a good fake. Why, the conspirators didn’t _vertically center it on the page!!_ And those left and right margins look pretty asymmetrical too. Sloppy. Clearly bogus. I rest my case. :D:D ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/568 "2010-08-05T14:28:17Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > You know damn well that I am not inquiring as to your religious beliefs, and I didn’t use the term “believe in”. > > Either answer the question, or refuse outright to answer the question-quit stalling. > > . > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > could you please answer _this_ question-Do you believe in the rumour that President Obama was born in Hawaii? > > My addition to illustrate a point. > > I don’t see that “believe” and “believe in” are that far apart. What about the rest of you? It is against the rules to change the quotes of other posters. Reported. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/569 "2010-08-05T14:53:44Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > I’m still confused. Is the argument that no-one is eligible to be POTUS, or no Hawaiians, or no black Hawaiians, or just not this particular black Hawaiian? I’m guessing the last, but the “arguments” presented so far would seem to apply equally to the first, unless I’m missing something. (Okay, on reflection probably the second last is firmly intended as well). No blacks. From the Free Republic: > **[Judges evade Obama birth-certificate query](https://freerepublic.com/focus/news/2558926/posts?page=106)** > [@El Gato](#): > > We’re not talking about citizen at birth, but rather Natural Born Citizen, which remains what it was in the late 1780s when the Constitution was written and ratified. No meer [sic] law, which is what the US code is, can modify the meaning of a Constitution term. > **[Judges evade Obama birth-certificate query](https://freerepublic.com/focus/news/2558926/posts?page=107)** > [@El Gato](#): > > Congress has no other power to confer citizenship, except via naturalization. > [@The Naturalization Act of 1790](#): > > ``` > An Act to establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization > > Section 1. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That any alien, being a free white person, who shall have resided within the limits and under the jurisdiction of the United States for the term for two years, may be admitted to become a citizen thereof > > ``` Only free white people allowed. LOGIC! ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/570 "2010-08-05T15:50:15Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > > > Btw, if you want to call me a moron, do it in the Pit in future, ya know, just for fairness’s sake? > > I’m running out of patience with you. Drop this now. Relevance, please? I’m not really interested in your personal opinions. Now, if you mean you and the rest of the mods are running out of patience with me, just say so. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/571 "2010-08-05T15:58:12Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Relevance, please? I’m not really interested in your personal opinions. I told you to drop it, so this is a warning for ignoring my instructions. If you have questions, do what you’re always supposed to do and either send me a private message or start a thread in ATMB. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/572 "2010-08-05T15:59:21Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > > [@Marley23](#): > > > > I’m running out of patience with you. Drop this now. > > Relevance, please? I’m not really interested in your personal opinions. Now, if you mean you and the rest of the mods are running out of patience with me, just say so. I really don’t think he needs to consult the other mods before telling you to knock it off. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/573 "2010-08-05T16:03:44Z")
> [@Don123](#): > > So you are falling back to “truth by authority” as the standard of your argument. I did not know you thought so highly of McCain, did you vote for him? > Don Well, since the government is the authority on this I’d say it’s a pretty good standard. I already mentioned that I voted for McCain. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > He might be a stone-cold racist, but he’s right that you are all just accepting what “the authorities” tell you. Then explain why McCain dismissed the allegations. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/574 "2010-08-05T16:07:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > > > Relevance, please? I’m not really interested in your personal opinions. Now, if you mean you and the rest of the mods are running out of patience with me, just say so. > > I really don’t think he needs to consult the other mods before telling you to knock it off. I don’t. But please leave this to **ivan astikov** and me. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/575 "2010-08-05T16:07:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > I really don’t think he needs to consult the other mods before telling you to knock it off. > > I don’t. But please leave this to **ivan astikov** and me. Of course. I apologize. Edited to add: Though it isn’t really an excuse, I wrote my post while you were writing yours, so I didn’t see that you had responded. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/576 "2010-08-05T16:08:39Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > [Orly Taitz is] a dentist!? Oh my. I can only presume that, while he have documentation of her travel from Russia to Israel to the US, her career in England has gone unrecorded. 😛 > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Orly Taitz has made about three hundred arguments against the posted certificate on [fightthesmears.com](http://fightthesmears.com), mostly on behalf of American servicemen who are pissed about being sent to Iraq. To the cheers of people who, if they’d heard of soldiers filing similar lawsuits on the ground that Bush had no right to send them to Iraq because he’d stolen the 2000 election, would have been screaming for the return of the draw-and-quarter. ---
**Author:** ![Don123](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19adc/32.png) [@Don123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don123)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/577 "2010-08-05T16:08:41Z")
Any one that wants to take the time to read Hawaii state statutes, (that is boring as hell) can do so, I gave the link to support what I said, you will find it within the first few pages. The “director” has the power to make changes: court orders, doctors, police, personal testimonies on the directors investigation, and for things that would involve the federal witness protection program. If you look at the bottom of the page you will see the reference date of when changes were made to the statutes, the last date is the one that is in effect now. There were many changes around 1982, that would put Obama in his twenties, old enough to know better and work the system as he has done all his life. As with all state statutes that I have read it is a patch work ordeal of references to older laws, court cases, revisions, and are NOT organized in any particular manner. The state makes, or changes, a law and they stuff it in the code books somewhere in the relating chapters or pages. Attorneys get paid good money to go threw this pile of papers so they can fight over it in court, as even the judge is confused over the exact applicable, meaning, and interpretation. As private people interested in the topic, you can make what you want out of it. I rather see the thread move forward than get bogged down and side tracked. Remember this is for entertainment purposes. The director in his job has leeway to interpret and apply the law as he sees fitting and guded by the loosly written laws, as he goes about his daily task of over seeing the records and his staff. His job changes with the governor, so in the end all you can do is “trust” his judgment— in RAW FAITH. Can records be changed by adding and omitting information? YES, are people to be trusted NO,— and here is proof positive found here in Hawaiian statutes. [http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06\_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS\_0338-0030.htm](http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0030.htm) (b) Any person who wilfully makes or alters any certificate or certified copy thereof provided for in this part except in accordance with this part, shall be fined not more than $1,000, or imprisoned not more than six months, or both. There would be NO need to for fines and punishment if that was not the case. And of course the director can escape by saying “he acted as to his judgment” as directed by law— and the attorneys can fight it out. But here is what amazes me, a cheap fine that is not even a days pay, and no more than six months in jail that in misdemeanor cases for first offence is usually suspended, that is IF the Hawaiian DA wants to prosecute the case. Does this prove Obama was born in Hawaii—NO NO NO. It does prove that the Obamabats DO NOT KNOW for fact that Obama was born in Hawaii and all they have is “trust” of authority, or truth by authority that is not evidence at ALL, not even close. A common tactic in argument is to raise the standard—OK I have raised it. Go for it and have some fun while you are figuring out how to get out of this one, and name calling does not cut it. Don ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/578 "2010-08-05T16:11:23Z")
> [@Don123](#): > > A common tactic in argument is to raise the standard—OK I have raised it. Does that mean you’re finally going to start posting some information indicating Obama wasn’t born in Hawaii? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/579 "2010-08-05T16:14:52Z")
How is he supposed to prove a negative? Is he supposed to produce a birth certificate saying Obama was born in Kenya? What if Obama’s had that one destroyed? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/580 "2010-08-05T16:16:56Z")
He’s not being asked to prove a negative, he’s being asked to prove a positive assertion that Obama was not born in the US. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877.md?page=30)