# Has Obama spent a million dollars to hide his birth certificate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877 "2009-08-09T22:44:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/581 "2010-08-05T16:18:27Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > How is he supposed to prove a negative? Is he supposed to produce a birth certificate saying Obama was born in Kenya? What if Obama’s had that one destroyed? Nobody asked him to _prove_ anything. He was asked for _evidence_ that Obama wasn’t born in Hawaii. Do you know the difference between _proof_ and _evidence_? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/582 "2010-08-05T16:19:17Z")
> [@Don123](#): > > Any one that wants to take the time to read Hawaii state statutes, (that is boring as hell) can do so, I gave the link to support what I said, you will find it within the first few pages. > > The “director” has the power to make changes: court orders, doctors, police, personal testimonies on the directors investigation, and for things that would involve the federal witness protection program. > > If you look at the bottom of the page you will see the reference date of when changes were made to the statutes, the last date is the one that is in effect now. There were many changes around 1982, that would put Obama in his twenties, old enough to know better and work the system as he has done all his life. > > As with all state statutes that I have read it is a patch work ordeal of references to older laws, court cases, revisions, and are NOT organized in any particular manner. The state makes, or changes, a law and they stuff it in the code books somewhere in the relating chapters or pages. > > Attorneys get paid good money to go threw this pile of papers so they can fight over it in court, as even the judge is confused over the exact applicable, meaning, and interpretation. > > As private people interested in the topic, you can make what you want out of it. I rather see the thread move forward than get bogged down and side tracked. Remember this is for entertainment purposes. > > The director in his job has leeway to interpret and apply the law as he sees fitting and guded by the loosly written laws, as he goes about his daily task of over seeing the records and his staff. His job changes with the governor, so in the end all you can do is “trust” his judgment— in RAW FAITH. > > Can records be changed by adding and omitting information? YES, are people to be trusted NO,— and here is proof positive found here in Hawaiian statutes. > > [http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06\_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS\_0338-0030.htm](http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0030.htm) > > (b) Any person who wilfully makes or alters any certificate or certified copy thereof provided for in this part except in accordance with this part, shall be fined not more than $1,000, or imprisoned not more than six months, or both. > > There would be NO need to for fines and punishment if that was not the case. And of course the director can escape by saying “he acted as to his judgment” as directed by law— and the attorneys can fight it out. > > But here is what amazes me, a cheap fine that is not even a days pay, and no more than six months in jail that in misdemeanor cases for first offence is usually suspended, that is IF the Hawaiian DA wants to prosecute the case. > > Does this prove Obama was born in Hawaii—NO NO NO. > > It does prove that the Obamabats DO NOT KNOW for fact that Obama was born in Hawaii and all they have is “trust” of authority, or truth by authority that is not evidence at ALL, not even close. > > A common tactic in argument is to raise the standard—OK I have raised it. Go for it and have some fun while you are figuring out how to get out of this one, and name calling does not cut it. > > Don You’re posting gibberish. Could you explain, in detail, what evidence you have that Obama was born outside of the country? Also, explain in detail, what evidence you have that you were not born to a pedophile priest and a cocaine addicted whore in Japan and sold to your present parents for a carton of menthols and a bottle of 7-up? You don’t even understand that you must provide evidence of what you are asserting. This is how the universe works. You don’t have evidence, so instead you clumsily fumble around and attack the evidence that is there for Obama’s Hawaiian birth. You have not discredited any evidence of Obama’s birth and you have not provided any evidence of the bizarre conspiracy theory you think happened. Just because you hate Obama doesn’t mean every negative thing you hear about him is true. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/583 "2010-08-05T16:21:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > > > How is he supposed to prove a negative? Is he supposed to produce a birth certificate saying Obama was born in Kenya? What if Obama’s had that one destroyed? > > Nobody asked him to _prove_ anything. He was asked for _evidence_ that Obama wasn’t born in Hawaii. Do you know the difference between _proof_ and _evidence_? Yes, evidence is something that leads to proof. Now, what evidence do you expect him to provide? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/584 "2010-08-05T16:23:24Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Also, explain in detail, what evidence you have that you were not born to a pedophile priest and a cocaine addicted whore in Japan and sold to your present parents for a carton of menthols and a bottle of 7-up? None of this is relevant, because Don doesn’t have the most important job in the world. ie. Keeping Americans from attacking everyone they perceive as a threat. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/585 "2010-08-05T16:25:47Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > Nobody asked him to _prove_ anything. He was asked for _evidence_ that Obama wasn’t born in Hawaii. Do you know the difference between _proof_ and _evidence_? > > Yes, evidence is something that leads to proof. Now, what evidence do you expect him to provide? What evidence do _you_ expect Obama to provide to show that he was born in Hawaii? Apparently a birth certificate, a newspaper birth announcement, the testimony of the two people responsible for confirming it aren’t enough? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/586 "2010-08-05T16:26:52Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > How is he supposed to prove a negative? Is he supposed to produce a birth certificate saying Obama was born in Kenya? What if Obama’s had that one destroyed? This is why you’re a conspiracy theorist. You don’t understand how to reason properly. Look, I’ll explain it to you: You, Ivan Astikov, were born on a moving train, to a princess and her true-love bodyguard as they ran from her father and the arranged marriage they had set up for her. That is an assertion. I’m saying that you are royalty and that specific facts are true. What a person who knows how to think would do, is ask what evidence I have for that. What a conspiracy theorist would do is question the records of your actual birth, as if that would prove the first part about the train. That’s what you do, that’s what Don does, you don’t provide evidence for the initial story, that Obama was born out of country or you were born on a train to a princess on the run. You instead question birth certificates and come up with bizarre chains of fantasy about how they can be faked and assume that this is evidence of the first story. What you and other conspiracy theorists don’t understand is that poking holes at evidence isn’t evidence of your preferred theory. Especially when you poke those holes with ignorant and non-factual arguments. Like you and the demolition of the towers, you don’t understand the issue and somehow your ignorance puts you above actual experts. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/587 "2010-08-05T16:27:32Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > Nobody asked him to _prove_ anything. He was asked for _evidence_ that Obama wasn’t born in Hawaii. Do you know the difference between _proof_ and _evidence_? > > Yes, evidence is something that leads to proof. Now, what evidence do you expect him to provide? Records from a hospital in Kenya. Eyewitness testimony from someone who saw his mother get on the plane/arranged her travel, or records from the airline. Eyewitness testimony from the doctor in Kenya who made the delivery. Documentation from the Kenyan ministry of whatever-it-is showing that she had entered the country. Edit: Not all of this. Any of this. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/588 "2010-08-05T16:29:48Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > Nobody asked him to _prove_ anything. He was asked for _evidence_ that Obama wasn’t born in Hawaii. Do you know the difference between _proof_ and _evidence_? > > Yes, evidence is something that leads to proof. Now, what evidence do you expect him to provide? _Any_ evidence. Is there _any_ evidence that President Obama wasn’t born in Hawaii? If not, all you have is a baseless assertion. Is it a baseless assertion , or is there evidence? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/589 "2010-08-05T16:32:20Z")
If there ever was evidence, would you expect it to still be around now if it was likely to ruin the Golden One’s gig? I don’t have to prove that governments get up to dodgy stuff; that’s a given. What you have to prove is that they aren’t doing it in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/590 "2010-08-05T16:33:44Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > If there ever was evidence, would you expect it to still be around now if it was likely to ruin the Golden One’s gig? Last I checked, Obama was not in charge of the Kenyan ministry of public health. Or its customs and immigration authorities. Once again: > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What evidence do _you_ expect Obama to provide to show that he was born in Hawaii? Apparently a birth certificate, a newspaper birth announcement, the testimony of the two people responsible for confirming it aren’t enough? ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/591 "2010-08-05T16:36:17Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > > [@Don123](#): > > > > So you are falling back to “truth by authority” as the standard of your argument. I did not know you thought so highly of McCain, did you vote for him? > > Don > > Well, since the government is the authority on this I’d say it’s a pretty good standard. I already mentioned that I voted for McCain. > > > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > > > He might be a stone-cold racist, but he’s right that you are all just accepting what “the authorities” tell you. > > Then explain why McCain dismissed the allegations. Hey, I agree there is no evidence that Obama was born outside the US, but I don’t think this is a valid defense against all the BS. Political candidates are beholden to strategy above all else. It is possible that McCain and his staff were convinced that Obama wasn’t born in the US, but saw the issue as a politcal loser and decided not to act. Especially after seeing Hillary try and fail at the same. I’m not saying that’s how it happened, just that it seems a weak arguement when there are so many other strong ones. Semi-related, I don’t understand why Orly is mocked for being a lawyer, dentist, and real estate agent. If someone I supported were so accomplished, I would hold that in their favor. Just because she is a crackpot doesn’t deminish her accomplishment of passing the bar, getting a dental degree and (to a lesser extent) passing the real estate agent requirements. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/592 "2010-08-05T16:39:36Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What evidence do _you_ expect Obama to provide to show that he was born in Hawaii? Apparently a birth certificate, a newspaper birth announcement, the testimony of the two people responsible for confirming it aren’t enough? None, or evidence that is questionable if it never happened. A standard, unaltered, original copy of the birth certificate, if it did. Anyone got an example of what an ordinary citizen’s certificate looks like, who was born at the same time? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/593 "2010-08-05T16:39:45Z")
> [@Pashnish\_Ewing](#): > > Semi-related, I don’t understand why Orly is mocked for being a lawyer, dentist, and real estate agent. If someone I supported were so accomplished, I would hold that in their favor. Just because she is a crackpot doesn’t deminish her accomplishment of passing the bar, getting a dental degree and (to a lesser extent) passing the real estate agent requirements. The implication is that if someone as disconnected from reality as O RLY can get credentials in those fields, they must not have terribly exacting standards. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/594 "2010-08-05T16:43:00Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > If there ever was evidence, would you expect it to still be around now if it was likely to ruin the Golden One’s gig? More examples of how you aren’t thinking of this correctly. How do you know Obama didn’t kill hookers? How do you know Obama didn’t rape children? How do you know Obama didn’t cause the financial meltdown with a cabal of bankers and hollywood types. There is literally an infinite amount of possible bullshit you could assert. Without evidence, why do you assert any of it? Your beliefs here are more a reflection of your prejudices than anything about Obama. You think he must of been born out of the country because he’s so “foreign”. Why don’t you think he raped children? There is exactly the same amount of evidence for that. None. Honestly, it’s sad to see how fragmented and worthless your arguments are. You don’t know how to argue facts and it’s all schadenfreudey. > [@](#): > > I don’t have to prove that governments get up to dodgy stuff; that’s a given. What you have to prove is that they aren’t doing it in this case. That’s honestly a worthless comment. Do I have to prove that the government isn’t raping you in your sleep? You need evidence to assert something, otherwise it’s just bullshit talk. You need to understand this before people will take you seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/595 "2010-08-05T16:48:46Z")
Hillary didn’t try and fail. She tried, and then a member of her own campaign staff discovered the Honolulu newspaper announcement, and they realized they were wrong and gave up. As far as Oily Taint goes, I suppose it’s sort of impressive that she passed the bar, but she went to an unaccredited law school, and it shows. I’m not sure what to make of her dental degree; dentists appear to be able to practice in Israel with just a bachelor’s degree, which is kind of scary, but I’m not sure about that. Anyway, it’s not that she’s mocked for being so qualified; she’s mocked for being totally off her rocker despite being so qualified. She _should_ know better. [QUOTE=ivan astikov] Anyone got an example of what an ordinary citizen’s certificate looks like, who was born at the same time? [/QUOTE] Birth certificates are not standardized in the US; each state issues its own. However, about a dozen people have already posted in this thread to point out that their certified copies look pretty much the same as Obama’s. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/596 "2010-08-05T16:56:13Z")
Ther prediction: > [@pravnik](#): > > You then claim that a law exists that could have allowed Obama’s mother to get a birth certificate for him even if he was born in Kenya. This is pointed out to be unlikely since the certificate was filed for four days after his birth, irrelevant since it clearly says he was born in Honolulu, and impossible since that law didn’t come into existence until 20 years later. Undaunted, you advance an entirely new argument, carefully researched by you just now on a blog you found that you agree with, that a former CIA agent has uncovered exciting new information from 50 years ago that there were in fact four different ways to get a birth certificate in Hawaii, most of which obviated the necessity of showing that anyone had been born to anyone anywhere at any time ever, essentially tuning birth certificates of the era into holographic instruments, being handwritten on the backs of envelopes or in the interior doors of bathroom stalls, as necessary. > > At this point, what’s the point of refuting you? If it’s painstakingly shown that the former secret agent’s claim is completely false and the only way to get a birth certificate at the time was to have the Governor personally present in the delivery room, you’ll simply continue to present convoluted argument after argument until you hit on one that’s completely unfalsifiable: that you have personal knowledge that a former clerk for the State of Hawaii made false entries of records regarding Obama’s birth in return for 10 million dollars, then erased her own identity and disappeared forever. Next page: > [@Don123](#): > > Also the “director” has the right to change information to the point it is lost forever, as if it never existed. Unfalsifiable. I’m psychic. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/597 "2010-08-05T17:06:03Z")
Here’s your $5. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/598 "2010-08-05T17:10:04Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > Next page: > > > [@Don123](#): > > > > Also the “director” has the right to change information to the point it is lost forever, as if it never existed. > > Unfalsifiable. I’m psychic. Not entirely true. It could be theoretically shown that birth certificates for Hawaii are changable enough that they are unreliable versus other states. Of course this has not been shown, nor has sufficient evidence been presented that would even remotely call into question Obama’s birthplace. But the validity of the birth records could be called into question, in theory. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/599 "2010-08-05T17:11:18Z")
And he didn’t say anything about a $10 million payoff. Give me back my $5! ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877/600 "2010-08-05T17:12:48Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You need to understand this before people will take you seriously. This is just mental gymnastics to me. I don’t take anything that seriously, unless it’s a matter of life and death for me or my loved ones. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-obama-spent-a-million-dollars-to-hide-his-birth-certificate/505877.md?page=31)