# Has patriotism changed over time? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 4, 2023, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-patriotism-changed-over-time/986593 "2023-07-04T22:39:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2023, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-patriotism-changed-over-time/986593/1 "2023-07-04T22:39:59Z")
This article basically says patriotism is a positive, optimistic view of one’s country. It implies this has been replaced by nationalism, which is more political. 1. Is this a fair description? Is it true? 2. If so, when did patriotism change? 3. I feel I am a patriotic supporter of Canada, without being jingoistic, blind to regional flaws, unrealistic or unpragmatic. Despite our problems our potential remains enormous. Do many Americans feel this way, or has polarization affected everything? (I have included the article but for my purposes do not need to summarize it.) > **[Reclaiming Real American Patriotism](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/07/july-4-patriotism/674605/)** > > This Fourth of July, let’s rescue our love of country from those who have hijacked it. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2023, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-patriotism-changed-over-time/986593/2 "2023-07-04T22:44:07Z")
We here are good patriots. Those people over there are evil nationalists. I think someone got accused of being unpatriotic, and is lashing out. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2023, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-patriotism-changed-over-time/986593/3 "2023-07-05T12:50:26Z")
I generally associate American “patriotism” with jingoistic, xenophobic, “support our troops and salute our flag or get out of this country you hippy scum” MAGA-types. For instance, leading up to July 4th I saw a few shares of a meme that if you want to kneel during the national anthem then maybe you should give your legs to a veteran who lost his legs fighting for your freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2023, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-patriotism-changed-over-time/986593/4 "2023-07-05T13:16:11Z")
There’s always been both. Sometimes the nationalists get really loud and stand out more. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2023, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-patriotism-changed-over-time/986593/5 "2023-07-05T13:18:57Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > I think someone got accused of being unpatriotic, and is lashing out. I think of nationalism as the form of patriotism that says “If you don’t feel the same as I do, you hate America” vs “We differ but we both appreciate this country and want what’s best for it” so, if that’s what’s happened, he still ain’t wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2023, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-patriotism-changed-over-time/986593/6 "2023-07-05T13:30:51Z")
The whole ‘America: love it or leave it’ thing is where jingoists really lose me. Why does it have to be a my way or the highway proposition? Why not “_America: love it or reform it through democratic processes_” Boy, does that just scream bumper sticker, or what? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2023, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-patriotism-changed-over-time/986593/7 "2023-07-05T13:31:53Z")
A lot of American patriotism does feel uncomfortably like nationalism to me. I would definitely say there’s a lot of “love it or leave it” attitudes here in the US, but I don’t think that’s anything new. It may be a little more polarized now than when I was growing up in the 80s, but the 80s were a pretty jingoistic patriotism type of era. I keep quiet about this stuff. I’ll wave the flag and go through the motions. I appreciate the opportunities the US has afforded me, but it makes little sense to me to be “proud” of the US or any country. That was all an accident of birth. But, no, I don’t say this out loud. I just enjoy my hot dog and fireworks show. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2023, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-patriotism-changed-over-time/986593/8 "2023-07-05T13:54:34Z")
An AP article: > **[In a polarized US, how to define a patriot increasingly depends on who's...](https://apnews.com/article/patriot-patriotism-meaning-independence-day-july-4-844de9b626ac6565cc64b723816080f3)** > > Millions of Americans will attend parades, fireworks, barbecues and other Independence Day events, celebrating the courage and sacrifices of the nation’s 18th century patriots, but that is only one version of a “patriot.” ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2023, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-patriotism-changed-over-time/986593/9 "2023-07-05T14:18:54Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > The whole ‘America: love it or leave it’ thing is where jingoists really lose me. Why does it have to be a my way or the highway proposition? Why not “_America: love it or reform it through democratic processes_” > Boy, does that just scream bumper sticker, or what? Back in the 70’s, in addition to bumper stickers reading “love it or leave it”, there were stickers reading “My country, right or wrong.” And one responding to that, which said “My country: right the wrongs.” America: love it _and_ reform it. I wore out one American flag, waving it over the years at (left-wing) protest rallies. I bought another one. It’s my flag too, damn it. And yeah: this whole argument isn’t new. I remember it well from the late 60’s and 70’s, but it’s probably been going on a lot longer than that. I’m not sure whether the OP article’s right about an increased sense of regionalism involved. ---
**Author:** ![Jaycat.again](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaycat.again/32/11525_2.png) [@Jaycat.again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaycat.again)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2023, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-patriotism-changed-over-time/986593/10 "2023-07-05T16:45:13Z")
It was easier to feel patriotic when you were fighting Hitler than it was when you were fighting Ho Chi Minh. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2023, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-patriotism-changed-over-time/986593/11 "2023-07-05T17:38:42Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > And yeah: this whole argument isn’t new. I remember it well from the late 60’s and 70’s Exhibit A: [![](https://media.snopes.com/2022/07/image.jpeg) ](https://media.snopes.com/2022/07/image.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2023, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-patriotism-changed-over-time/986593/12 "2023-07-05T21:08:44Z")
I’d forgotten about that. Thanks for posting it. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2023, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-patriotism-changed-over-time/986593/13 "2023-07-07T22:12:29Z")
I always feel hardcore Canadian patriotism online is basically just nationalism since it’s seemingly entirely based on how they’re NOT America. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2023, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-patriotism-changed-over-time/986593/14 "2023-07-07T22:14:51Z")
I can’t speak for non-moderates (maybe not then). However, I agree too many Canadians define themselves through dated stereotypes and through what they are not - which is often American, sometimes Torontonian or Laurentian, or other several things dependent on position or province.