# Has popular music finished evolving? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 13, 2005, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-popular-music-finished-evolving/316829 "2005-08-13T04:26:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tarrsk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/97f17d/32.png) [@Tarrsk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tarrsk)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-popular-music-finished-evolving/316829/21 "2005-08-13T08:59:05Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Is “indie” supposed to be a style of music now? Could someone clear that up? I’m not a Modest Mouse expert, but I wouldn’t have expected anyone to say they’re not a rock band. My take on it is that “indie” is currently undergoing the same gradual change in definition that previously hit “punk” and “alternative”; i.e. they start out as musical movements based around a core philosophy, and as they become more popular, become associated with a particular sound. The word “indie” at its heart simply refers to any music released on an independent record label, but in recent years has been utilized for its connotations of uniqueness and innovation. Thus you get genres of music such as indie rock, indie pop, etc., all of which do exhibit identifiable sounds (albeit ones that are perhaps less cohesive than punk rock or alternative rock). Modest Mouse, for example, is a very standard four-piece band, with a rhythm guitarist/ lead singer, lead guitarist, bassist, and drummer. However, their sound cannot be easily categorized with any of the traditional rock genres… the closest thing I can think of to a semi-accurate description would be “lo-fi power pop with wannabe Frank Black vocals.” At this point, many indie rock bands aren’t even signed to independent record labels- again, just as punk icons such as Bad Religion eventually found their way to the major labels. ---
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-popular-music-finished-evolving/316829/22 "2005-08-13T09:58:45Z")
Oh there are so many directions pop music can go. Philip Glass, African tribal, Chinese folk, Peruvian flute…the list is endless. As far as shock value… Rock and Roll, then long haired British bands, then four letter word rap songs…well, it is hard to predict what will piss off parents (and delight their kids) in the future. Pretty much “been there, done that” already. But the joy of youth is they always find a way to make their parents hate their music…so, considering now is a time of hip hop rap crap (surprise, I hate it), my guess is your kids will either be playing Christian Pop or Italian Opera just to make you scream upstairs, “turn that crap down!” ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-popular-music-finished-evolving/316829/23 "2005-08-13T10:00:41Z")
Maybe evolving music just stopped being popular… ---
**Author:** ![TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/51bf81/32.png) [@TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-popular-music-finished-evolving/316829/24 "2005-08-13T10:03:33Z")
It’s hilarous and depressing to watch people who don’t seem to really know _anything_ about music attempt to discuss it. It’s kind of like watching penguins try to play basketball. ---
**Author:** ![Stringer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Stringer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringer)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-popular-music-finished-evolving/316829/25 "2005-08-13T10:09:36Z")
> [@VCO3](#): > > It’s hilarous and depressing to watch people who don’t seem to really know _anything_ about music attempt to discuss it. It’s kind of like watching penguins try to play basketball. Great contribution. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-popular-music-finished-evolving/316829/26 "2005-08-13T10:40:09Z")
> [@Can Handle the Truth](#): > > I think most art forms have peaked, some long ago. Music may in fact be the last to do so. > Painting and sculpture peaked in the 1500-1600’s (IMHO). > I haven’t heard about anything really new or exciting in literature since the 1930’s. > I haven’t seen anything interesting in architecture since Frank Lloyd Wright. I can only read this post in the voice of Marvin from Hitch-Hiker’s Guide to the Galaxy. **micahjn** , **VCO3** does have a point, even if it was jokily made: to contend that “hip hop” hasn’t changed in 25 years, for example, pretty much entirely proves that the person can’t have actually listened to any. I’m not saying everyone has to like it, but if someone believes that nothing’s changed between, say, Grandmaster Flash and Cannibal Ox, they’re just plain objectively wrong. Which is quite an impressive achievement when discussing something as subjective as music. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-popular-music-finished-evolving/316829/27 "2005-08-13T10:58:22Z")
Actually, I was more amused by the idea that ‘rap’ was 20-25 years old. I seem to recall some old James Brown from the 60s that had that sort of rhyme and rhythm patterns and I’m also flashing on some things from the jazz style from the 1940s with the same thing. Heck, even some chanting folk stuff who’s origins are lost in the mists of time resemble it. To declare that any form of art is ‘dead’ or ‘finished’ is foolish. If history proves anything it’s that things evolve. A ‘type’ of art might be played out (for me that’s television, for example) but that doesn’t mean it’s not still open to reinterpretation by the talented. Remember Sturgeon’s Law: 90% of everything is crap. It’s that last 10% that should catch your attention. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-popular-music-finished-evolving/316829/28 "2005-08-13T12:00:23Z")
> [@Beware of Doug](#): > > Maybe evolving music just stopped being popular… We have a winner folks!! ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-popular-music-finished-evolving/316829/29 "2005-08-13T14:39:54Z")
Rock music is definitely stagnant, and most of the “new” variations (alternative, grunge) are just variations of forms of rock developed in the 60s. Will there be something new? I would assume so, but rock music has had an incredibly long run for popular music. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-popular-music-finished-evolving/316829/30 "2005-08-13T15:14:58Z")
What about the brief danceclub fad of the 2020s, participatory trance-yodelling? Or the lovely chaos-music generated ten years from now when a brilliant doctoral student at MIT figures out how to map certain complex equations in sound rather than in graphs, and creates infinitely complex musical patterns? The Samplifier genre is in its nascent form right now, but in five years, we’ll have top-40 songs generated entirely by sampling extremely brief segments (\<0.5 seconds each) from newscasts, sounds of industrial machinery, and older music. Surely there are new types of music out there. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-popular-music-finished-evolving/316829/31 "2005-08-13T15:39:23Z")
> [@Can Handle the Truth](#): > > All I know is what I hear on the radio. That’s your problem right there. The radio isn’t even playing the tip of the iceberg these days, and it sure as hell isn’t playing anything innovative, cause innovative stuff doesn’t draw an audience. Everyone always says that the late 60s and early 70s were rock’s most innovative period, but if you go back and look at the charts from then, you’ll find that they were dominated by bubblegum pop acts who aren’t even remembered today. > [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > Actually, I was more amused by the idea that ‘rap’ was 20-25 years old. I seem to recall some old James Brown from the 60s that had that sort of rhyme and rhythm patterns and I’m also flashing on some things from the jazz style from the 1940s with the same thing. Heck, even some chanting folk stuff who’s origins are lost in the mists of time resemble it. And from what I’ve heard, Pierre Schaeffer foresaw the beats by 20-25 years. Even though all the elements were present from way back when, the generally recognized starting point of rap as a musical style is the mid-1970s. It’s hard to pinpoint an exact date because we know there were a few years where rap was being performed but not recorded. > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > The Samplifier genre is in its nascent form right now, but in five years, we’ll have top-40 songs generated entirely by sampling extremely brief segments (\<0.5 seconds each) from newscasts, sounds of industrial machinery, and older music. Found sound works of that sort have been around since the late 40s, and they have yet to really break into the popular consciousness. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-popular-music-finished-evolving/316829/32 "2005-08-13T15:46:12Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > Found sound works of that sort have been around since the late 40s, and they have yet to really break into the popular consciousness. That’s kinda my point: although new genres are never absolutely new, all they require is a brilliant musician to make them work in a popular form. For example, in Japan right now\*, there’s a type of electronica that’s not new, but that is often compared to Dueling Banjos. Essentially, you’ve got two musicians (usually keyboardists, but there’s some guitarists who do it too) who play simultaneously, but alternate being the back-rhythm and the lead, usually switching off every four or eight measures. The lead supplies a riff, and then at the switch the new lead responds to the riff, trying either to give a clever musical rejoinder or to elaborate on the riff with a complexity that the first lead, once the next switch happens, won’t be able to match. The resulting music, when well-performed, sounds like a brilliant, sparkling conversation, although there are never any lyrics. Right now the music is in the garage-band stage, but the breakout act is just waiting to be found. It’s pretty easy, actually, to imagine new genres of music. It’s inevitable that new genres will occur. Daniel - this is another lie, of course, but it’d be cool. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-popular-music-finished-evolving/316829/33 "2005-08-13T16:45:53Z")
This topic just seems naive. Music - like all art - always evolves. Either the OP hasn’t been listening or needs to clarify. Listen to Missy Elliot - the song with the double-dutch talk? (It featured DMC as a bus driver at the end) - uses bhangra beats. Lots of stuff that cutting edge musicians are doing - hip hop, rock, electronica - is borrowing from each other and world beats. The fact that there isn’t nearly as much control over the channels of delivery is the issue - since CDs and radio don’t rule the day as much - with mp3 players, network distribution of music, etc. - it is harder to focus attention on any one commerically-approved style. Everyone has access to anything. Since Microsoft & Intel have a stranglehold on PC’s - their standard is everywhere. You can say their op systems and microchips have evolved but within the limited scope they control. Now, imagine if no one PC standard had a great than 15% share of the marketplace. Would you be able to say there is only one standard, or judge whether any of the existing standards are evolving? Music is ubiquitously accessible. The old rules of evolution are off. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-popular-music-finished-evolving/316829/34 "2005-08-13T18:52:34Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Aren’t we the world-weary one? I feel bad for you, that you can’t find joy and innovation in the world in which you’re actually living. Yeah, but considering his “location,” he’s pretty avant-garde. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-popular-music-finished-evolving/316829/35 "2005-08-13T19:58:26Z")
> [@VCO3](#): > > It’s hilarous and depressing to watch people who don’t seem to really know _anything_ about music attempt to discuss it. It’s kind of like watching penguins try to play basketball. Well that post certainly highlighted your vast knowledge of music, basketball and penguins. :rolleyes: It’s always difficult to comprehend new styles since they basically haven’t been invented yet. It does feel though that we have been in kind of a musical dark ages since the 90s. Grunge and alt-rock basically marked a shift from the carefree beer-blast hair metal rock of the 80s to a heavier, more melancholy sound. It soon became more radio frendly and then it stayed there - and endless barage of pissed off 20-somethings in loose fiting Gap clothes singing about some asshole they’re in love with. Rap has gone the opposite route, evolving from a serious social statement of life in the gheto to a bunch of cartoons driving around in “Benz-os” looking fo bitches and bling. Electronica music still has yet to catch on, but occasionally you have artists like Moby or Paul Oakenfold put out something comercially accessible or a band like Coldplay incorporates electronic elements into their music. In the end, it’s only music though. People will continue to put out songs and occassionally there will be something catchy we haven’t heard before. ---
**Author:** ![pinkfreud](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pinkfreud/32/17603_2.png) [@pinkfreud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkfreud)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-popular-music-finished-evolving/316829/36 "2005-08-13T20:10:40Z")
A highly-opinionated friend of my husband once told me in an authoritative fashion that “no good science fiction has been written since 1960.” Personally, I think it’s sad when a person’s mind snaps shut and refuses to admit any additional input, but it is certainly not uncommon. IMHO, music will stop evolving when the last trumpet sounds. And maybe not then. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-popular-music-finished-evolving/316829/37 "2005-08-13T20:30:35Z")
If you’re talking about whether popular music of today will ever further evolve, well, structurally, our music hasn’t evolved for a really damn long time. We’ve still got twelve notes and some basic rhythms that we’ve been relying on for millenia, with a few modern modifications thrown in a century or two ago. Sure, a hundred years ago 3/4 time was quite popular, while today 4/4 seems dominant… but 4/4 was popular a hundred years ago, too. Structurally, it ain’t changing much. Music’s present popular sound has really always been driven by the liminations of the sound reproduction technology. It’s come a long way in seventy-five years what with electrifying instruments and MIDI and and microphones and loudspeaker/PA technology. (Most of the advances in music have been about how it was _reproduced_ to simulate being in the room with the real band and don’t count much.) I can see the OP’s point to a certain degree; after all, digital sampling has reached a point where you can make music from the finely pitched samples of barking dogs doing “Jingle Bells,” so how else could the technology of _the sound_ be further advanced? I dunno if it can. But music is going to continue advancing to be what people want to hear. In the age of interactivity, it might be interactive riffing controlled or influenced by the audience; or in the age of declining social centers, it might experience a revival of real dance-step musical divisions such as cha-cha and tango and rhumba were; or it might become infinitely customizable so a songwriter merely releases the chord structure while the consumer digitally picks out his own custom “band” to perform it, based on the pre-programmed idiosyncratic algo-rhythms of various performers. ---
**Author:** ![soulmurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@soulmurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulmurk)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-popular-music-finished-evolving/316829/38 "2005-08-13T22:43:05Z")
This thread reminds me of a brief essay Douglas Adams wrote entitled “How to Stop Worrying and Love the Internet”. Excerpt: > [@](#): > > I suppose earlier generations had to sit through all this huffing and puffing with the invention of television, the phone, cinema, radio, the car, the bicycle, printing, the wheel and so on, but you would think we would learn the way these things work, which is this: > > 1. everything that’s already in the world when you’re born is just normal; > > 2. anything that gets invented between then and before you turn thirty is incredibly exciting and creative and with any luck you can make a career out of it; > > 3. anything that gets invented after you’re thirty is against the natural order of things and the beginning of the end of civilisation as we know it until it’s been around for about ten years when it gradually turns out to be alright really. > > Apply this list to movies, rock music, word processors and mobile phones to work out how old you are. While not truly capturing the arguments above, it seems applicable in a way. As to the OP: As **Fish** said, structurally, there isn’t much evolvement left for music. But the evolutionary process isn’t just about making new things, it’s about bettering the old. In the recent past bands like “The Sound of Noise” and “Ministry” paved the way for non-musical sounds to be used as music. Bands like “Mates of State” use male and female vocalists to duel harmoniously. “Iron and Wine” is just one guy with a guitar and a recorder who harmonizes with himself. Or even 40 years ago, people like Jimi Hendrix made sounds with an electric guitar that no one had ever heard before. So, sure, structurally perhaps music is at a point (and probably has been for years and years) where it can’t evolve much, but the evolution is far from complete. There are many, many artists who continually reinvent not only their own particular sound, but the “genre” they’re socially forced into. Combining old with new and fresh with stale… It’s the reason there are so many god-forsaken sub-genre’s of sub-genre’s of music anymore. The social need to classify everything into a neat little package is becoming harder and harder. However, listening to commercial radio, you’ll find very little of any of this evolution. What sells will continue to sell until it doesn’t sell anymore. Then the labels and stations will take a few chances and whatever catches on immediately has as many similar acts pushed to the forefront and so begins another phase of mediocrity and thoughtlessness. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-popular-music-finished-evolving/316829/39 "2005-08-13T23:10:32Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > If you’re talking about whether popular music of today will ever further evolve, well, structurally, our music hasn’t evolved for a really damn long time. We’ve still got twelve notes and some basic rhythms that we’ve been relying on for millenia, with a few modern modifications thrown in a century or two ago. Sure, a hundred years ago 3/4 time was quite popular, while today 4/4 seems dominant… but 4/4 was popular a hundred years ago, too. Structurally, it ain’t changing much. Interesting…your (admittedly very brief) summary of ‘structure’ is actually about metre. And yes, on a basic level this has not changed. However, the unique feature of western music was tonaility, as the 20th century has essentially seen its downfall with the exception of within postmodernist contexts. Rap (using the term as widely as ‘classical’ is used, i.e. encompassing the whole genre across several decades) is essentially non-tonal. This is a huge departure from previous western musical traditions, and the implications are not yet clear. It is possible that this will lead to a new and dramatic evolution, or that it is a dead end. Either way, functional tonality died a long time ago, and the chord sequences of MOR rock are the proof of this - we are so certain of what is coming next, we don’t need to think about it. > [@](#): > > I can see the OP’s point to a certain degree; after all, digital sampling has reached a point where you can make music from the finely pitched samples of barking dogs doing “Jingle Bells,” so how else could the technology of _the sound_ be further advanced? How about the _ **creativity** _ of _the sound_? How about an infinite number of monkeys with an infinite number of samplers? ---
**Author:** ![soulmurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@soulmurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulmurk)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-popular-music-finished-evolving/316829/40 "2005-08-13T23:10:34Z")
Oh, and I wanted to add: If you follow along with history, you’ll notice that a lot of times it takes a large scale event that alters the general populace’s perception before a major shift in art becomes noticable. For instance, in literature, WWII signified the demise of Modernism and the birth of Post-Modernism. There were other factors of course, and the actual transition wasn’t identified or labelled until after the fact, but the change in tone, as well as subject and the manner they were written, was noticable. Some would say that we are in the process of a transition from Post-Modernism into the next era now. My personal opinion is that it will (should) be called Cynicism, but that’s just me. It stands to reason that despite the lack of a blatant traumatic event like a World War, in the last 60 years or so since WWII, we’ve reached the end of one particular way of looking at things and are moving into another. Not just in literature, but in all means of artistic expression; and not just in art, which is merely a reflection of the times it is created in, but in the minds and hearts of those who consume said art. YMMV, as I of course speak only from my own limited experience as a US citizen… though I do believe that the advent of the internet and other means of communication has created a means for the average, layman enthusiast of art to appreciate art from other cultures they may not have been privy to decades ago, and that that itself is a part of the reason for the shift into the next era. Perhaps it should be called Post-Internetism, who knows? Sounds like a thread unto itself… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-popular-music-finished-evolving/316829.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-popular-music-finished-evolving/316829.md?page=3)