# Has Putin mentally deteriorated? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 27, 2022, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-putin-mentally-deteriorated/960179 "2022-02-27T05:01:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-putin-mentally-deteriorated/960179/161 "2022-03-04T17:22:43Z")
> [@Roger\_That](#): > > Does Putin, or Russia, have any legitimate claims on anything negotiated with the Soviet Union? Seems to me that when a country disbands, all its agreements become null and void. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > In international law, there is the concept of succession states: that a new government of a country is the successor to the previous government, and therefore inherits the international obligations and privileges of the predeccessor. It is not always followed, as the USSR in 1918, for example, disavowed any succession to Tsarist Russia. > > In the case of the USSR break-up, the new state of Russia asserted that it is the successor state to the USSR, particularly with respect to the USSR’s seat on the security council fo the UN. That statement of succession was supported by most of the other former Soviet republics, and was accepted by the international community. Yep. There’s never been any serious question about this. Russia was pretty much universally acknowledged as the successor state to the USSR for pretty much every international organization, regime, and treaty in existence. In particular, the United States has always regarded Russia as the successor state to the USSR for all of the treaties and agreements they have entered into. The U.S. has always considered itself to still be bound by those treaties and agreements and has always considered Russia to be bound by them as well. And so has Russia. _If_ there were a binding agreement between the U.S. and NATO on the one hand the USSR on the other, there’s absolutely no question that that agreement would have survived the dissolution of the USSR. The issue is that this “agreement” was never formally announced or documented, and American officials involved in the talks have always denied that any such agreement was ever made. What I personally think _probably_ happened is this: U.S. and NATO officials went to some lengths to privately reassure Soviet officials that NATO had no _current_ plans to expand, and that NATO wouldn’t be including any Warsaw Pact states in the foreseeable future. Soviet officials took that as a solemn agreement that NATO would _never_ expand eastward. U.S. and NATO officials just thought they were offering anodyne reassurances as to the current situation. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-putin-mentally-deteriorated/960179/162 "2022-03-04T18:30:17Z")
Here’s the wikipedia summary, with a few cites, stating that the issue of a guarantee is disputed: > [@](#): > > Though the topic may have been raised during the treaty’s negotiations, there is no mention of NATO enlargement in the September–October 1990 agreements on German reunification.[[9]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO#cite_note-International_Security-9) Whether or not [Hans-Dietrich Genscher](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Dietrich_Genscher) and [James Baker](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Baker), as representatives from NATO member states, informally committed to not enlarge NATO east of East Germany during these and contemporary negotiations with Soviet counterparts is a matter of dispute among historians and international relations scholars.[[10]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO#cite_note-:0-10)[[11]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO#cite_note-11)[[12]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO#cite_note-12)[[13]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO#cite_note-nsa-20171212-13) ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-putin-mentally-deteriorated/960179/163 "2022-03-04T19:12:17Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > For _decades_ , Putin has been saying that NATO is a hostile alliance aimed directly at Russia. He’s been saying that NATO expansion east of Germany is in direct and deliberate violation of a solemn agreement made during the talks on German unification in 1990, and is an overtly hostile military move intended to threaten and weaken Russia. He’s been saying that NATO expansion into Ukraine is a true red-line for Russia, an existential threat, that Russia cannot allow. > > And then, after Putin repeatedly meddled in Ukrainian politics, launched cyber-attacks, staged limited military interventions and a limited invasion in the Donbas region, and outright seized Crimea, after all of that, when Ukraine’s drift towards the EU and NATO only accelerated, Putin stages a full-scale invasion. > > And people are shocked - shocked! - that after decades of very loudly and publicly saying that Ukraine’s status is an existential matter of Russian national sovereignty and security, Putin acts like it’s an existential matter Russian national sovereignty and security. > > This all seemed so self-evidently ridiculous to outside observers that many of them of them convinced themselves that Putin was just posturing, that he couldn’t really mean it, so when they’re finally hit in the face with Putin walking the the walk instead of just talking the talk, many of them decide that it wasn’t that they were oblivious to what Putin had been saying all along, it’s that Putin must have mentally deteriorated Putin may have seriously believed that, but if so, he was wrong. NATO wasn’t going to invade Russia in a first strike, even if Ukraine had joined. MAD is still MAD, whether a NATO first strike has the tank convoy leaving from Paris, Berlin, Warsaw, or Kyiv. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-putin-mentally-deteriorated/960179/164 "2022-03-04T19:29:49Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > Putin may have seriously believed that, but if so, he was wrong. NATO wasn’t going to invade Russia in a first strike, even if Ukraine had joined. MAD is still MAD, whether a NATO first strike has the tank convoy leaving from Paris, Berlin, Warsaw, or Kyiv. Well, yeah, of course. Since the end of the Cold War, there have been a lot of very public arguments at pretty high levels in the West about what the purpose of NATO even was anymore, and even whether it should simply be abolished. Putin’s perception of NATO as an aggressive alliance aimed directly at Russia was a _severe_ disconnect from the self-perception of civilian and military officials inside NATO. My point in bringing up Putin’s perception of NATO wasn’t to argue that Putin has a masterful grasp of geostrategic affairs, or that his view of NATO is even plausible. It’s that it’s nothing new - it’s been his view for decades. His perception of both the likelihood of NATO expansion to include Ukraine and of what sort of threat that would pose to Russia are _deeply_ flawed. But they’ve _always_ been deeply flawed. This isn’t a recent development. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-putin-mentally-deteriorated/960179/165 "2022-03-04T19:36:52Z")
His latest speech sounds more brazen than delusional, though either is a plausible description of the content: > **[Putin wants ‘normalization’ of global relations, saying there is ‘no need’...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/04/putin-russia-ukraine-normalization-sanctions/)** > > Vladimir Putin said Russia saw no need to aggravate tensions with other countries, claiming that Moscow’s reactions to Ukraine only came “in response to unfriendly actions toward Russia.” > Russian President Vladimir Putin called Friday for the “normalization” of relations with other states, saying Moscow has “absolutely no ill intentions with regard to our neighbors.”… ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-putin-mentally-deteriorated/960179/166 "2022-03-04T19:46:47Z")
Yeah, “you made us hurt you” really sells these days… ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-putin-mentally-deteriorated/960179/167 "2022-03-04T19:52:31Z")
Russia (and China for that matter) are still basically blaming the US and NATO for all of this happening. We made them do all of this. They had no choice but to valiantly invade Ukraine to protect themselves from US and NATO…something. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-putin-mentally-deteriorated/960179/168 "2022-03-04T20:00:51Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Everybody is looking for the pivot where Putin “takes the gloves off”, and jumping at every instance of Russian recklessness. That pivot is probably inevitable, but what happened at the nuclear power plant wasn’t it. I am afraid you are right ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-putin-mentally-deteriorated/960179/169 "2022-03-04T20:05:12Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > His latest speech sounds more brazen than delusional, though either is a plausible description of the content: I think that’s just a throwback to Soviet rhetoric, where the truth is irrelevant. All that matters is what the leaders want to be said. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-putin-mentally-deteriorated/960179/170 "2022-03-04T20:14:48Z")
hot off the press russia has blocked Facebook AND twitter ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-putin-mentally-deteriorated/960179/171 "2022-03-04T20:49:47Z")
Didn’t Facebook and Twitter already block Russia? ---
**Author:** ![romansperson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/romansperson/32/17100_2.png) [@romansperson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/romansperson)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-putin-mentally-deteriorated/960179/172 "2022-03-04T20:50:44Z")
> [@Al128](#): > > russia has blocked Facebook AND twitter Especially interesting in light of that little speech he just gave that was mentioned upthread. The brainwashing has now begun in earnest. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-putin-mentally-deteriorated/960179/173 "2022-03-04T20:59:26Z")
Anyone who’s played enough Civ has had the AI effectively telling you “Change your relationship with this other civ or we’re at war.” Normally in the real world, of course, it doesn’t work that way. Relationships may be frosty or the dispute over the third country may be part of the relationship otherwise, but wars don’t happen. Putin sounds like one of those AIs, using a completely bogus reason to declare war. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-putin-mentally-deteriorated/960179/174 "2022-03-04T22:07:57Z")
At least he’s not Civ!Gandi ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2022, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-putin-mentally-deteriorated/960179/175 "2022-03-05T01:45:24Z")
Civ is the best. And Civ IV is the best of the best. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2022, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-putin-mentally-deteriorated/960179/176 "2022-03-05T02:21:22Z")
If you _don’t_ sit at a long table, it might affect the purity of your essence. Or something. Putin’s speech in late February was uncharacteristically angry. But I can’t draw conclusions as to his health. Clearly he underestimated the response to his gamble. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2022, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-putin-mentally-deteriorated/960179/177 "2022-03-05T03:02:23Z")
Putin has assured the German chancellor that all of the war crimes everyone can see happening aren’t actually happening. > **[Putin Makes Deluded Claims About War in Phone Call With German Chancellor](https://www.thedailybeast.com/putin-makes-deluded-claims-about-ukraine-invasion-in-phone-call-with-german-chancellor-olaf-scholz)** > > He flat-out denied Russian forces were bombing Ukrainian cities. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2022, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-putin-mentally-deteriorated/960179/178 "2022-03-05T03:50:07Z")
Yeah, but that’s not mental deterioration, that’s just him being a lying-sack-of and not even bothering to disguise a gaslight. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2022, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-putin-mentally-deteriorated/960179/179 "2022-03-06T13:22:29Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > This no longer felt like a man playing a high-stakes chess game, now it felt like a scene from “Macbeth.” _I am in blood_ _Stepp’d in so far that, should I wade no more,_ _Returning were as tedious as go o’er._ ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2022, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-putin-mentally-deteriorated/960179/180 "2022-03-06T13:42:15Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > Putin sounds like one of those AIs, using a completely bogus reason to declare war. Sound like the [Nuclear Gandhi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Gandhi) meme from _Civilization_. Allegedly the various leaders’ aggression score was an unsigned 8-bit integer and Gandhi’s already low score could flip from 00 to FF, 25x more aggressive than the most naturally aggressive leaders in the game. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-putin-mentally-deteriorated/960179.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-putin-mentally-deteriorated/960179.md?page=10)