Has Rummy flipped?

Great Debates
81

Is there any evidence that the Iraqis have provided regarding the dismantling of their bioweapons program? I’ve heard that there is still much unaccounted for and plenty of evidence suggesting that the whole project has gone mobile or underground.

I know, and have read the evidence, regarding the medium destroyed and what not. I just don’t think anyone, except Ritter, really thinks the Iraqis are dealing with clean hands in the bioweapons area.

Wasn’t the whole exercise supposed to be Iraq turning over a new leaf and cooperating? Admitting, now, to the nuclear program everyone knew about years ago is not the new leaf I am looking for.

82

Perhaps - do you have a cite? We know that the status of half the population (females) has improved dramatically.

83

The Afghani’s are thrilled? Strolling through the streets singing glad songs of praise for thier American liberators? Boy, that’s the trouble with the liberal media conspiracy, you gotta wait for december to tell you the facts.

Last I heard, they were shivering in bombed out buildings, peering down the road for the huge convoys of American aid that will be arriving, gosh, any minute now. We have installed a quite agreeable person as President of Afghanistan, though for all practical purposes he might as well be titled Mayor of Kabul. The rest of the country is under the thumb of the same thugs and warlords. Of course, they are all secular thugs, not religious loonies like the Taliban. Ah, progress! How subtle it can sometime be.

“In part about death?” Primarily about death. There “may” be civilians killed? Bet on it, if you can find someone to bet against it.

84

Great imagination and style, maybe a little hyperbolic. (Scroll down, timeline just keeps going - US aid to Afghanistan)

85

Frankly, sad as it is, the Afghanis created most of their own misery, though there’s no end to the theories, I’m sure, as to why the US is to blame for it all. Nonetheless, we are obligated to be in there, to make it work as a democracy. That’s what we’re doing.

And also sadly, you’re right, primarily about death - I just hate saying that. We can all hate war, but it’s a necessary evil sometimes.

86

Greetings back at ya. Great to see you back on the boards.

The Indo web site had problems last week. The link is working now.

http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=370328

87

Ritter, of course, argues that the programme was destroyed by Ritter and his team.

The way I read it at the moment is that unless Saddam can be shown to have manufactured stuff since 1998 with equipment the Inspectors didn’t find in the seven years they were in situ (and Ritter says they did eventually find the manufacturing gear), then everything he may or may not have is by now sludge.

What Blix wants to see is evidence of the sludge itself or of its destruction as well as evidence of what happened to the ‘growth media’, presumably used to manufacture more of same – no expert here. Even that would, apparently, be of no use, Blix just wants to check it off his list.

Everything else (on Chem / Bio’s) is about Saddam proving a negative (no equipment and nothing manufactured). I think – anyone have a better understanding ?

yojimbo Nice to be around again. Cheers!

88

True enough. And that is a pretty plausible explanation for the stuff that wasn’t used. As for chemical weapons that were* deployed in the Gulf War, those may not be accountable for by anyone. When Iraqi army units were being overrun and surrendering en masse, trying to save their own lives, meticulous record-keeping of inventory was probably not a high priority as they bolted and ran for the nearest lines. “Gulf War Syndrome” is thought by some, again plausibly, to have been caused by at least one abandoned chemical weapons dump that was destroyed without being carefully surveyed. By now, even if Iraq wanted to make a full accounting, it might not be possible.

So let’s look at what is, not what might be in our most paranoid scenarios, before making an irreversible decision about what to do about it. And what is is, well, what? Everything that has been offered beyond Saddam being a brutal dictator, not exactly new or unique information, has failed to check out. It’s time we all stepped back and took a reality check, isn’t it?

89

Gad. I need to preview more often. Sorry.

90

That’s new to me.
I thought there was an air raid on a chemical plant. Unfortunately the wind was blowing in the direction of the coalition lines, setting off chemical alarms and assumed to be the cause of Gulf War Syndrome.
At least, that’s the version I saw on the BBC, a while back.

91

Point 1 being, nobody took inventory first.

Point 2 being, it’s an example of how poor documentation could occur.

92

> Does anyone have any idea which countries he means?

PRO:
UK, Spain, Italy, Denmark, Netherlands

ANTI:
Germany, France, Russia, Greece

Probably Anti:
Austria, Belgium, Luxenborg

Undecided:
Ireland, Portugal, Sweden, Finland
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2698153.stm

93

The UK is in the anti camp, thank you very much. Blair isn’t the whole country.

94

>The UK is in the anti camp, thank you very much. Blair isn’t the whole country.

Well, it wasn’t me who made the list, it’s your own BBC.

Nobody is the whole country, but he is your PM last I looked. And that’s a whole lot better than all the polls you see thrown around. So a poll says a lot of Brits are opposed to the war, so what. A country neither can nor should be led by whatever the latest polls say.

95

When the overwhelming majority of the electorate of a country are against a war then politicians should listen and offer our democratic representatives a free vote. As it stands Blair is practically alone in his desire for a war. Alone in his Cabinet, in his party and in the country. This may translate into the UK supporting the USA according to the BBC but it is important to note that the citizens do not support it.

Blair will find it difficult to survive politically if he goes to war without evidence and without UN approval. To give him his due, he is pretty principled and would not let this stop him doing what he thinks right, even if the rest of us disagree.

The British public thinks, with some justification IMO, that we are being consistently lied to by Bush and his cronies and that they are hell bent on war, come what may, for geopolitical ends that have nothing to do with WMD’s. These leaves us thinking we’re being taken for fools and people tend to get stubborn when they feel like that.

For me, I require verifiable evidence of a credible, clear threat to the USA and Europe before sanctioning war, not fabrication after fabrication. And then only under UN auspices and only if the same effort is made to enforce all the other UN resolutions in the area.

96

> When the overwhelming majority of the electorate of a country are against a war then politicians should listen and offer our democratic representatives a free vote.

Perhaps, that’s not how representative democracies work, but personally I agree. But then how do you know what the overwhelming majority thinks. Anyone can craft a poll to show whatever he wants.

> For me, I require verifiable evidence of a credible, clear threat to the USA and Europe before sanctioning war, not fabrication after fabrication. And then only under UN auspices and only if the same effort is made to enforce all the other UN resolutions in the area.

Can be translated into: For me, I require pigs to fly, hell to freeze over and rivers to flow upstream before sanctioning war.

> To give him his due, he is pretty principled and would not let this stop him doing what he thinks right, even if the rest of us disagree.

If true, I too find that highly admirable. Finally a politician led by his own conscience and not by the latest media polls or re-election potential. Strange though, since I though Blair had a reputation of being highly conscious of always doing whatever is good for the next election?

In the news:
European leaders to stand united with America in the battle to disarm Iraq

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2708023.stm

Leaders of eight countries sign plea for unity and cohesion with the US. Good thing. Let the world know that, even though they like to presume so, Germany and France does not speak for all of Europe. Germany and France thinks that if they stand together and present a solid block to the rest of Europe, they have enough power to control the EU; let’s show them they’re mistaken – we will not be bullied. Now they can stew in their own anger; Schröder made the bed for Germany when he decided to exploit the Iraq conflict in his own bid for election votes and power - now let him sleep there. As for the complaint, that they’re sowing division within the EU. Schröder removed any chance of a united EU when he selfishly without consulting the rest of EU chose to support Saddam Hussein. Somebody (Silvio Berlusconi or Jose Maria Aznar?) suggested a EU block of Spain, Italy Britain and like-minded countries to oppose the German-French axis, good idea!

97

“…the German-French axis…” That sounds vaguely familiar to me???

98

And since when did representative democracy not mean allowing democratically elected representatives a vote? As for your poll comment, every poll in the UK shows overwhelming oppostion to war and if you beleive otherwise you are deluding yourself. And no - i’m not providing a cite before anyone asks. read a newspaper.

As for your flying pigs comment, there is nothing unreasonable about expecting some consistency in approaching resolutions of the UN or an even-handed approach to the Palestinian issue, your mockery notwithstanding.

It is precisely this pick and choose attitude that makes it look like the USA and the UK are pursuing a hidden agenda that has nothing to do with resolving the issues that fuel conflict in the Middle East or feed the fires of Islamic fanaticism.

i’ve no doubt at all that there will be war and that it’ll be over in a few days with a minimum of US/UK casualties. No doubt a lot of Iraqi’s will die but who cares about them. Or about the thousands of fanatics that will blossom in their wake.

Those who so the wind will undoubtedly reap a whirlwind.

99

Axis is what the German – French unity is called in the media here. Now that you mention it I can see that it’s also in that incredibly stupid Axis-of-Evil speech. But my first association with axis is the axis powers of WWII versus the allied forces – which is a bit ironic. So there…

> every poll in the UK shows overwhelming oppostion to war and if you believe otherwise you are deluding yourself. And no - i’m not providing a cite before anyone asks. read a newspaper.
No need for a cite I have seen some of them. I’m just questioning weather they’re really a fair representation of the population actually think (all the election result polls here are consistently wrong when the final result are in) and even if they are - weather they’re relevant; since I do not think a government should be ruled by polls.

Yes I do find it unreasonable to insist everything must be perfect, every little problem addressed, before you act. Then of course you can never act. It is ok to try to solve the world’s evil a little at a time, or just those you see a solution for – perhaps even ok just to go after those you have a self interest in seeing solved. Getting rid of Sadam is a good thing despite whatever else happens in Israel, North Korea, the world or whatever.

> No doubt a lot of Iraqi’s will die but who cares about them.
Well I do for one, perhaps you do not. At least declaring everybody you disagree with do not is a pretty cheap shot.

> feed the fires of Islamic fanaticism
Only the Moslems themselves are to blame for and can solve the problem of Islamic fanaticism. Insinuating that the US has only herself to blame for past and future terrorist acts like 9/11 is like blaming a rape victim for the rape.

And as an Englishman I should think you’re thrilled by a strong alternative to the German-French dominance in European politics (outside this particular issue of course)

100

In the news:
“Ten more countries across eastern Europe threw their support behind United States policy in Iraq last night[…]”

Not to flog a dead horse, but it seems that the position of Germany and France are fast becoming even more marginalized in Europe. Perhaps the OP will admit Rummy was actually right on this one? Of course I find his comparison of Germany with Libyia a bit over the edge myself.