# Has Russia declared war on NATO? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 17, 2007, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-russia-declared-war-on-nato/404501 "2007-05-17T19:26:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sri\_Theo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Sri\_Theo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sri_Theo)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-russia-declared-war-on-nato/404501/1 "2007-05-17T19:26:27Z")
I don’t know if this has become popular news or widely known yet, but currently Estonia is coming under massive Denial-of-service attacks which lead to massive internet blackouts throughout the country- so much so that the Government had to block of internet access to outside countries to keep local services up. One Estonian businessman from the Economist article claimed, > [@](#): > > “We are back to the stone age, telling the world what is going on with phone and fax,” This is important as Estonia is generally regarded as a high tech economy and this is causing serious damage to their economy so it is far more important than just simple vandals doing it for laughs. Especially as many are claiming that this whole affair is being orchestrated by Russia due to political concern and for Putin’s benefit which there is some evidence to suggest. In addition to all this I’m wondering why Electronic attacks aren’t considered ‘an attack against all’ according to NATO as it is very possible that if this is sustained it could do as much damage as missiles fired over a border. Also worth thinking about is the accusations made from America a few months ago regarding China’s supposed intrusion into American MoD networks. What do you think the response of Estonia’s allies in NATO and the EU should be? (About Estonia) > **[Russia accused of unleashing cyberwar to disable Estonia](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/may/17/topstories3.russia)** > > A three-week wave of massive cyber-attacks on the small Baltic country of Estonia, the first known incidence of such an assault on a state, is causing alarm. [http://economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story\_id=9163598](http://economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9163598) (About US-China but I couldn’t find any good links) [http://economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story\_id=9163598](http://economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9163598) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-russia-declared-war-on-nato/404501/2 "2007-05-17T20:35:02Z")
They had phones and faxes in the stone age? ---
**Author:** ![Sri\_Theo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Sri\_Theo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sri_Theo)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-russia-declared-war-on-nato/404501/3 "2007-05-17T20:47:29Z")
Sure, didn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-russia-declared-war-on-nato/404501/4 "2007-05-17T20:48:49Z")
Didn’t you ever watch the Flintstones? In any case, this is pretty serious, and surely an economic attack. However, economic attacks fall into a bit of a gray area here as far as collective security arrangements go. I think we need to help the Estonians as much as we can, obviously, while trying to avoid a shooting war in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-russia-declared-war-on-nato/404501/5 "2007-05-17T20:50:09Z")
" . . . a big hello to all intelligent life-forms everywhere. And to everyone else out there, the secret is ‘Bang the rocks together, guys.’"’ Seriously, rockets, tanks etc. etc. can easily be traced back to where they came from. A distributed network of grannies and rented botnets blasting the Estonian government network is a completely different thing. It does seem that there’s always a first though, it’ll be interesting to see what NATO does do. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-russia-declared-war-on-nato/404501/6 "2007-05-17T20:51:57Z")
Why would the Russians do this? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-russia-declared-war-on-nato/404501/7 "2007-05-17T20:55:21Z")
Because the government is not particularly nice. The Estonians opted to removed a Russian statue from a city plaza and move it to a cemetery. Given how the Russians were rather disinclined to release their satellite states in the '90s this is a wonderful opportunity to emphasize the benefits of not pissing them off. It’s a protection racket. ---
**Author:** ![Sri\_Theo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Sri\_Theo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sri_Theo)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-russia-declared-war-on-nato/404501/8 "2007-05-17T20:57:30Z")
Except that the attacks have been traced back to Russia- its just not known whether they’re controlled by the Kremlin or not. Many people advocate action against Iran for sponsoring terrorism in nearby states even though evidence is mostly circumstantial, I see this as a similar issue, if you follow me? (and I just realised I put in the wrong link for the US-China thing) [http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2115129/china-tit-tat-hacks-escalate](http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2115129/china-tit-tat-hacks-escalate) This is the real one. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-russia-declared-war-on-nato/404501/9 "2007-05-17T21:06:35Z")
So you want Estonia to invoke Article 5 based on attacks originating from within Russia but not necessarily from Russian agencies. That seems questionable, especially since your own articles mention that > [@](#): > > “At present, NATO does not define cyber-attacks as a clear military action. This means that the provisions of Article V of the North Atlantic Treaty, or, in other words collective self-defence, will not automatically be extended to the attacked country,” said the Estonian defence minister, Jaak Aaviksoo. So Article 5 is irrelevant. Now as for your Iran analogy, that would be a military action taken by an individual state, not by the alliance. There’s nothing stopping Estonia from taking on Russia, aside from the lack of a death wish of course. ---
**Author:** ![Sri\_Theo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Sri\_Theo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sri_Theo)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-russia-declared-war-on-nato/404501/10 "2007-05-17T21:13:10Z")
You’re right. So maybe I should clarify what I’m interested in. And that is debating about why it isn’t considered an act of war and about whether as computing becomes more and more integrated with how society works this will eventually change. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-russia-declared-war-on-nato/404501/11 "2007-05-17T21:21:29Z")
Are you sure the “attack” is coming from/authorised by the Russian government, and not some disgruntled college student, or SPECTRE agent? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-russia-declared-war-on-nato/404501/12 "2007-05-17T21:21:59Z")
This debate has come up in different forms, you know, going back to not only the Gulf War but also the OPEC actions of the 1970s. It is clear that economic pressure can present an Article 5 challenge to NATO, yet there is little agreement as to how bad the threat needs to be before action may be taken. It seems to be applied situationally. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-russia-declared-war-on-nato/404501/13 "2007-05-17T21:25:42Z")
OK, don’t scare me like that. I expected to go to [CNN.com](http://CNN.com) and see pictures of Russian tanks in Warsaw. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-russia-declared-war-on-nato/404501/14 "2007-05-17T21:25:59Z")
Here’s the problem, a legitimate state is ultimately responsible for all military actions initiated from its boundaries. When 3rd parties begin operating from within the geographic region controlled by state it becomes a mess. See last year’s tiff in Lebanon. Now what happens when no one controls specific regions? What happens when those attacks are remotely triggered and offer sufficient plausible deniability? It will eventually be an act of war but it’ll require controls on whatever the internet grows into. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-russia-declared-war-on-nato/404501/15 "2007-05-17T21:27:54Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] This debate has come up in different forms, you know, going back to not only the Gulf War but also the OPEC actions of the 1970s. It is clear that economic pressure can present an Article 5 challenge to NATO, yet there is little agreement as to how bad the threat needs to be before action may be taken. It seems to be applied situationally. [/QUOTE] This is another example of international regimes and individual state laws not catching up to the times. A massive internet denial of service attack is roughly the modern day equivalent of the letters of marque authorizing privateering (which often brought about open warfare between states.) It’ll just take time for collective security arrangements to address it, and it will also be a bit murkier because it’s always harder to tell which government (if any) sponsored the attacks. Although sometimes it was difficult to directly prove a specific privateer was operating under the auspices of a specific government, governments were quick to deny it if one of their privateers were caught in many cases–in some cases they weren’t however and would openly reward their privateers (ala Francis Drake.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-russia-declared-war-on-nato/404501/16 "2007-05-17T21:58:26Z")
[QUOTE=Sri Theo] Many people advocate action against Iran for sponsoring terrorism in nearby states even though evidence is mostly circumstantial, I see this as a similar issue, if you follow me? [/QUOTE] It is similar. That does not mean “action,” in the military sense, would be wise in either case. Economic sanctions, perhaps – but consider the economic effects (on the West) of putting up trade barriers to an economy the size of Russia’s. Besides, this is too trivial a provocation to restart the Cold War, even on a rhetorical level. ---
**Author:** ![Sri\_Theo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Sri\_Theo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sri_Theo)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-russia-declared-war-on-nato/404501/17 "2007-05-17T22:05:00Z")
Sure, but wouldn’t the knowledge that such an action would be considered an act of war considerably dissuade anyone from taking that action in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2007, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-russia-declared-war-on-nato/404501/18 "2007-05-17T22:16:42Z")
[QUOTE=Sri Theo] Sure, but wouldn’t the knowledge that such an action would be considered an act of war considerably dissuade anyone from taking that action in the first place? [/QUOTE] Quite the reverse, in some cases. ---
**Author:** ![Sri\_Theo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Sri\_Theo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sri_Theo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2007, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-russia-declared-war-on-nato/404501/19 "2007-05-18T00:05:03Z")
To take a wider view then, how would you expect a larger nation such as America or the UK to act if it was to come under such a concerted attack from - within another hostile country. I doubt either of them would permit it to go on for this long. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2007, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-russia-declared-war-on-nato/404501/20 "2007-05-18T00:12:22Z")
This is a really interesting issue. This is evidence of something I have thought for a long time. Whenever people talked about the demise of Russia, I always thought that Russia was becoming one of the most modern militaries in the world. A true modern military would consist of cyberwarfare and well basically, ninjas. Russia is turning into a mafia state. Their wars will be conducted through espionage primarily. In this case Russia is just telling Estonia, “No, you still belong to us.” Did anyone hear about a Russian law that makes it legal for them to kill enemies of the regime in any foreign nation? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-russia-declared-war-on-nato/404501.md?page=2)