# Has Something Happened in Israel Lately? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 8, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-something-happened-in-israel-lately/570610 "2011-02-08T02:43:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-something-happened-in-israel-lately/570610/21 "2011-02-09T19:24:41Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > “We think that the Muslim Brotherhood might take power in Egypt, and that might lead to violence.” > “Apartheid, apartheid, apartheid!!!” That’s not what **chappachula** said. > [@chappachula](#): > > Liberal professors in ivory towers are filling the news screens with drivel about the wonderful opportunities for freedom and democracy in the new Egypt, in a new era of peace. > > The average Israeli ain’t buyin’ it. > It’s as unrealistic as when Nancy Reagan brought peace to the ghetto by telling the gangs in the 'hood to “just say no” > We know our 'hood. That’s very close to “I do not want Middle Eastern countries other than Israel to enjoy freedom and democracy, because they could decide to threaten Israel.” I also think that it’s possible that the Muslim Brotherhood might take power and Egypt, and I don’t know what would happen then. But I’m still willing to let the Egyptian people choose who their leaders should be. > [@Alessan](#): > > That’s just the tip of the iceberg, of course. Barak has dismantled his own Labor party, alienated essentially everyone except a small circle of yes-men, **shifted to the right of the Likud** and has treated the Israeli defense establishment as his own personal domain. Can you explain this (especially what I bolded, but maybe the rest as well, if you can). I’d heard that Barak had left his former party because of disagreements about security policy, but I didn’t know he’d shifted so far. Can you describe his change of beliefs, and what it means (in your opinion) for Israeli politics? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-something-happened-in-israel-lately/570610/22 "2011-02-09T19:37:12Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > That’s not what **chappachula** said. Yes, it is. That’s exactly what she said, that the MB gaining power in Egypt would not lead to an era of peace. And you oddly snipped the line right before that bit, which was, emphasis mine: > [@](#): > > It’s because there is peace, and a strong economy. And that is all about to change, now that the largest army in the Arab world, armed with the best American weapons, is about to be under the control of the Muslim Brotherhood. > > Liberal professors in ivory towers are filling the news screens with drivel about the wonderful opportunities for freedom and democracy in the new Egypt, in a new era of peace. > > The average Israeli ain’t buyin’ it. > It’s as unrealistic as when Nancy Reagan brought peace to the ghetto by telling the gangs in the 'hood to “just say no” > We know our 'hood. It’s not at all close to saying that nations aren’t allowed democracy. There’s also nothing inherent his/her statement that she wouldn’t “let the Egyptian people choose”, merely that she/he didn’t think that a peaceful outcome was at all likely. It should also be noted that if the MB does gain power, it’s unlikely that Egypt will gain the freedom and democracy that they want. And even if it was saying that Egypt should be ruled by a dictatorship (which it wasn’t), that’s still nowhere close to the absurd fiction that she/he was supporting _Apartheid._ I mean, seriously. Saying that people shouldn’t have rose colored glasses on and that the MB may seize power and lead a violent regime is hardly anti-democracy, and it’s even less pro-Apartheid. But that does serve as a good demonstration of that smear in action. In response to a supposition that the MB may seize power, someone claims that it’s “Apartheid” politics. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-something-happened-in-israel-lately/570610/23 "2011-02-09T19:37:37Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > That’s not what **chappachula** said. > > That’s very close to “I do not want Middle Eastern countries other than Israel to enjoy freedom and democracy, because they could decide to threaten Israel.” I also think that it’s possible that the Muslim Brotherhood might take power and Egypt, and I don’t know what would happen then. But I’m still willing to let the Egyptian people choose who their leaders should be. Except, of course, that s/he’s saying nothing of the sort - that’s your rather inaccurate paraphrase. S/He’s claiming that “ivory tower” types are hoplessly unrealistic about the possible future benefits of the revolution; and that those who live in that part of the world (“our 'hood”) are more pessimistic. There is, as far as I can see, absolutely nothing objectionable about any of that. No-where is he saying any of what you find offensive - that Egyptians ought not to enjoy freedom or democracy. I dunno where you are getting that gloss from. You simply invented it. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-something-happened-in-israel-lately/570610/24 "2011-02-09T19:53:17Z")
thank you, **Malthus** and **Finn** , for saying it better (and faster) than I could myself! ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-something-happened-in-israel-lately/570610/25 "2011-02-09T19:56:30Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > I think South Africa during the apartheid just gave a call: they want you back. I think you’ve mixed up your South African metaphors. A better comparison would be to the way that while calling for Democracy in South Africa, various ANC figures such as Chris Hani supported the crushing of the Solidarity movement in Poland because they preferred having Poland run by a Communist dictatorship which would support them over a Democracy that might not. Of course the metaphor isn’t perfect because Poland wasn’t on South Africa’s border and a Democratic Polish government wasn’t likely to invade and try and destroy the ANC. The last part is not meant to suggest that a democratic Egypt is likely to invade Israel, just that a Democratic Egypt is potentially more of a threat to Israel than a Democratic Poland was to the ANC. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-something-happened-in-israel-lately/570610/26 "2011-02-09T21:22:52Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > S/He’s claiming that “ivory tower” types are hoplessly unrealistic about the possible future benefits of the revolution; and that those who live in that part of the world (“our 'hood”) are more pessimistic. > > There is, as far as I can see, absolutely nothing objectionable about any of that. > > No-where is he saying any of what you find offensive - that Egyptians ought not to enjoy freedom or democracy. I dunno where you are getting that gloss from. You simply invented it. **chappachula** does seem to believe that democracy in Egypt is bad news for the region and for the world, at least for the time being. He didn’t say “regime change in Egypt could lead to negative consequences, so we have to remain vigilant”, which would definitely be unobjectionable. He said that “liberal professors in ivory towers” (the classic conservative smear) think Egyptian democracy is good and will lead to improved peace, but Israelis and other right-thinking people aren’t buying it and know it’s likely to lead to war. Sure, **chappachula** didn’t say anything should be done to keep Mubarak in power, but he’s obviously doing more than just expressing worry at the possible consequences. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Saying that people shouldn’t have rose colored glasses on and that the MB may seize power and lead a violent regime is hardly anti-democracy, and it’s even less pro-Apartheid. But that does serve as a good demonstration of that smear in action. In response to a supposition that the MB may seize power, someone claims that it’s “Apartheid” politics. Can you explain what “smear” you’re talking about here, and who it’s supposedly pointed at? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-something-happened-in-israel-lately/570610/27 "2011-02-09T21:44:36Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > Can you explain what “smear” you’re talking about here, and who it’s supposedly pointed at? “I think South Africa during the apartheid just gave a call: they want you back.” Pretty clearly a smear and not a “smear”. > [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > . He didn’t say “regime change in Egypt could lead to negative consequences, so we have to remain vigilant” That’s exactly what he/she said. He/she said that the MB will probably take power, and that would be bad. > [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > He said that “liberal professors in ivory towers” (the classic conservative smear) think Egyptian democracy is good and will lead to improved peace, but Israelis and other right-thinking people aren’t buying it and know it’s likely to lead to war. No… “the Ivory Tower” is simply the common term for those in academia. It’s not a smear any more than Hesse was “smearing” academicians with The Glass Bead Game. And yes, again, the statement is that if the MB gains power there won’t be peace. Hardly surprising seeing Qutb’s influence on the MB and the fact that Hamas are their descendants. It’s fairly simple, and I’m not sure where you’re having problems understanding it. 1. Ivory tower type folks say that Egypt’s revolution will lead to peace and democracy. 2, But that may be rose-colored-glasses-thinking and wrong. 2. Instead, the Muslim Brotherhood may take control. 3. That would not lead to democracy or peace. 4. That’d be bad. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-something-happened-in-israel-lately/570610/28 "2011-02-09T21:49:17Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > No… “the Ivory Tower” is simply the common term for those in academia. Pull the other one, it’s got the Democrat Party on it. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-something-happened-in-israel-lately/570610/29 "2011-02-09T23:16:40Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > **chappachula** does seem to believe that democracy in Egypt is bad news for the region and for the world, at least for the time being. He didn’t say “regime change in Egypt could lead to negative consequences, so we have to remain vigilant”, which would definitely be unobjectionable. He said that “liberal professors in ivory towers” (the classic conservative smear) think Egyptian democracy is good and will lead to improved peace, but Israelis and other right-thinking people aren’t buying it and know it’s likely to lead to war. > > Sure, **chappachula** didn’t say anything should be done to keep Mubarak in power, but he’s obviously doing more than just expressing worry at the possible consequences. > Can you explain what “smear” you’re talking about here, and who it’s supposedly pointed at? The “smear” here is comparing a perfectly reasonable opinion to supporting aparthied. It’s as absurd an over-reaction as I’ve ever seen in GD, which is saying something. 😃 I’m seeing absolutely no basis for this, and none for the notion that **chappachula** is taking any position (much less any objectionable position) on whether Egyptians ought to enjoy freedom or democracy. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-something-happened-in-israel-lately/570610/30 "2011-02-10T01:50:59Z")
OTOH are many Israelis really worried that the MB will take over control of the army? (Which is not to disagree with the absurdity assessment of the reaction to that comment. Not at all.) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-something-happened-in-israel-lately/570610/31 "2011-02-10T04:39:56Z")
I’d be interested to see a poll, but the idea is hardly coming out of left field. [ > [@](#): > > Muslim Brotherhood: ‘Prepare Egyptians for war with Israel’ > > A leading member of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt told the Arabic-language Iranian news network Al-Alam on Monday that he would like to see the Egyptian people prepare for war against Israel, according to the Hebrew-language business newspaper Calcalist. > > Muhammad Ghannem reportedly told Al- Alam that the Suez Canal should be closed immediately, and that the flow of gas from Egypt to Israel should cease “in order to bring about the downfall of the Mubarak regime.” He added that “the people should be prepared for war against Israel,” saying the world should understand that “the Egyptian people are prepared for anything to get rid of this regime.” ]([http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=206130](http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=206130)) It should be noted that several days after that was published,[a pipeline delivering natural gas to Jordan (quite likely mistaken for one to Israel)](http://articles.latimes.com/2011/feb/05/world/la-fgw-egypt-explosion-20110206) was destroyed via[what is most likely sabotage.](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-05/egypt-gas-pipeline-feeding-israel-explodes-in-sinai-desert-arabiya-says.html) [Some of recent criticism seems based on a recent poll where 65% of Israelis thought that the removal of Mubarak would have negative consequences for them.](http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20110204/twl-israeli-fears-over-regime-change-in-3fd0ae9.html) (I haven’t been able to find the poll and don’t speak Hebrew. It’d be interesting if one of our Israeli Dopers can find it and translate it. I’m especially interested to see if it was a scientific poll and/or what the specific question was, as I’ve seen it phrased many different ways online). I don’t think, however, that Israeli wariness over an MB domination Egypt is at all irrational. [ > [@](#): > > A spokesman for the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt on Thursday evening repeatedly refused to commit to maintaining the peace treaty with Israel, or even recognizing Israel, if the Brotherhood becomes a player in the future governance of Egypt. > > Asked on CNN if his organization would support the maintenance of the Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty, Mohamed Morsy, a spokesman for the Muslim Brotherhood, dodged a direct answer but said Israel had failed to honor the treaty. He said it would be up to the Egyptian parliament to decide on the fate of the treaty, and that the parliament would reflect the will of the people. > > Asked next if an Egypt with a Muslim Brotherhood component in government would even recognize the state of Israel, Morsy again evaded a direct answer despite being pressed several times. “It’s ridiculous to ask about the future,” he said at one point, and then responded with the question: “Does Israel recognize a Palestinian state?” > > He also accused Israel of “shedding the blood of the Palestinians for more than 60 years.” > > Morsy added that the Brotherhood “are not against the Jews. We are against Zionism. We are against torturing the Palestinian people.” > > Morsy also said the Muslim Brotherhood opposed violence. “We do not use violence against anyone,” he said. But what was happening on “Palestinian land,” however, he said, was not violence but “resistance. And resistance is acceptable by all mankind. And it is the right of people to resist imperialism,” he said. ]([Middle East News | The Jerusalem Post](http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=206725)) ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-something-happened-in-israel-lately/570610/32 "2011-02-10T06:26:18Z")
After they got the entire Sinai desert in that peace treaty, they’re still going to play this game? Look at the size of Egypt’s land, and then look at Israel…this is like the 6’6, 350 pound stud kicking sand on a scrawny 12 year old. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-something-happened-in-israel-lately/570610/33 "2011-02-10T06:57:15Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > After they got the entire Sinai desert in that peace treaty, they’re still going to play this game? Look at the size of Egypt’s land, and then look at Israel…this is like the 6’6, 350 pound stud kicking sand on a scrawny 12 year old. Er,… nobody has suggested that they were planning on demanding more land from Israel. What’s considerably more likely is they’ll put a lot of pressure on Israel to be more accommodating to the Palestinians. I.E. freeze on building new settlements in the West Bank and similar concessions. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-something-happened-in-israel-lately/570610/34 "2011-02-10T07:11:10Z")
My point is that it seems like Egypt got a pretty good deal in that peace treaty. Israel gave them the Sinai desert - which they had taken in a war that Egypt participated in. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-something-happened-in-israel-lately/570610/35 "2011-02-10T07:50:58Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > My point is that it seems like Egypt got a pretty good deal in that peace treaty. Israel gave them the Sinai desert - which they had taken in a war that Egypt participated in. Israel also got a pretty good deal as well. Frankly, I think Israel was a lot more happy with the US giving them a couple of billion bucks every year since Sadat to play nice with Israel than with getting the Sinai back. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-something-happened-in-israel-lately/570610/36 "2011-02-10T09:18:09Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I think you’ve mixed up your South African metaphors. Have I ? > [@](#): > > And that is all about to change, now that the largest army in the Arab world, armed with the best American weapons, is about to be under the control of the Muslim Brotherhood. Sorry, reminds me a lot of the shit whites used to say about when the ANC would take over. Note the total absence of conditional, there’s no ifs or possibly or maybe, it is crystal clear certainty. Followed by: > [@](#): > > Liberal professors in ivory towers are filling the news screens with drivel about the wonderful opportunities for freedom and democracy in the new Egypt, in a new era of peace. Give democracy to the brownies or the blackies and you end up with chaos and mayhem. > [@](#): > > The average Israeli ain’t buyin’ it. > It’s as unrealistic as when Nancy Reagan brought peace to the ghetto by telling the gangs in the 'hood to “just say no” > We know our 'hood. And so the Middle East is in truth Israel’s street and those brownies are the local hoods. Keep them down, I say. Sorry but this shit is a rehash. If you’re gonna be bigoted at least go for originality points. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-something-happened-in-israel-lately/570610/37 "2011-02-10T09:35:48Z")
This is actually a very good example of the type of hysterical exageration that typifies certain more… overblown… criticisms. Based on the flimsiest of reasons, we get a narrative completely out of proportion of a simple claim about anti-democratic forces seizing power in Egypt. > [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Sorry, reminds me a lot of the shit whites used to say about when the ANC would take over. Note the total absence of conditional, there’s no ifs or possibly or maybe, it is crystal clear certainty. This is an interesting game of Free Association. Someone thinks that the Muslim Brotherhood will take over, then it must be like Apartheid. Certainty, evidently, is Apartheid. Or something. > [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Give democracy to the brownies or the blackies and you end up with chaos and mayhem. Someone thinks that the Muslim Brotherhood will take power, why, they’re not just advocating Apartheid, but they’re racist. Ironically enough, Zombie has argued quite strongly against people being “commissars” and “inquisitors” when they point out that anti-Jewish conspiracy mongering is kinda racist. But he seems comfortable accusing someone of not just being a racist, but _actually supporting Apartheid_ if they’re convinced that the Muslim Brotherhood will seize power. It’s a curiously fickle opposition to “commissars” and “inquisitors” that’s behind Zombie’s argument. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-something-happened-in-israel-lately/570610/38 "2011-02-10T09:50:43Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > …various ANC figures such as Chris Hani supported the crushing of the Solidarity movement in Poland because they preferred having Poland run by a Communist dictatorship which would support them over a Democracy that might not. Have you a reference for this? The items I’m finding are talking about the white South African miners’ union, also sometimes known as Solidarity, and the intersection of race and class politics in South Africa which had made being “communist” in South Africa more complicated than in many places well before Hani was born. If Hani expressed a position toward the Polish Solidarity, I’d be interested to know what the context was. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-something-happened-in-israel-lately/570610/39 "2011-02-10T09:51:23Z")
Oh, and this is just hillarious… > [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > And so the Middle East is in truth Israel’s street and those brownies are the local hoods. Keep them down, I say. It’s pretty obvious that Zombie isn’t a native speaker of English. With a comment about how Israelis “know their neighborhood”, he decides that anybody is calling the Egyptians “hoods” who should be “kept down”. (Has anybody even used the term “hood” to mean “thug” outside of the 1970’s?) What was actually said about those “brownies” and “keeping them down” (for serious?) was: > [@](#): > > If the Egyptian people choose to let freedom ring, all Israelis will be very happy to “get used to it”. > But it is very likely that the Muslim Brotherhood will win in any upcoming vote. > And then Egypt’s first free election will also be its last. Heavens forfend, someone wants Egypt to have a chance at real democracy but thinks that the Muslim Brotherhood will seize power and that will lead to violence. How Apartheidy! Apartheidalicious! Apartheidtastic! (Zombie sure has seized on a useful smear, boy howdy.) Obviously, a lack of understanding or even saying the opposite thing as to what’s being claimed isn’t something that’s going to get in the way of Zombie’s curiously-divorced-from-reality claims. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2011, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-something-happened-in-israel-lately/570610/40 "2011-02-10T10:25:37Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Have you a reference for this? The items I’m finding are talking about the white South African miners’ union, also sometimes known as Solidarity, and the intersection of race and class politics in South Africa which had made being “communist” in South Africa more complicated than in many places well before Hani was born. If Hani expressed a position toward the Polish Solidarity, I’d be interested to know what the context was. Chris Hani was the General Secretary of the South African Communist Party and they received massive amounts of aid from the Soviet Union and their satellite states, including Poland. Why would you be remotely surprised that he’d support the crushing of the group trying to overthrow one of his allies. Next, you’ll be shocked to learn that Nelson Mandela was a huge fan of Khaddafi, Castro, and Arafat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-something-happened-in-israel-lately/570610.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-something-happened-in-israel-lately/570610.md?page=3)