# Has the ACLU ever protected the rights of some Christians? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 5, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-aclu-ever-protected-the-rights-of-some-christians/334185 "2005-12-05T15:57:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BluePitbull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@BluePitbull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BluePitbull)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-aclu-ever-protected-the-rights-of-some-christians/334185/1 "2005-12-05T15:57:04Z")
I hear the ACLU do stuff like wanting the City of Los Angelos to remove the cross off their seal or Sueing a school because it held a Christmas pagent or protecting the rights of the KKK to march. Any counterexamples? ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-aclu-ever-protected-the-rights-of-some-christians/334185/2 "2005-12-05T16:04:34Z")
Good grief, good grief… One of an immense number of examples: > **[Following Threat of ACLU of Virginia Lawsuit, Officials to Agree Not to Ban...](https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/following-threat-aclu-virginia-lawsuit-officials-agree-not-ban-baptisms-public-parks?redirect=cpredirect%2F16230)** > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASERICHMOND, VA - Under pressure from the American Civil Liberties Union of Virginia, Falmouth Waterside Park Manager Brian Robinson has agreed not to prohibit baptisms in Stafford ---
**Author:** ![BluePitbull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@BluePitbull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BluePitbull)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-aclu-ever-protected-the-rights-of-some-christians/334185/3 "2005-12-05T16:23:14Z")
So how come CHICK and other ultra conservative christian groups hate ACLU ? 😕 That website was informative. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-aclu-ever-protected-the-rights-of-some-christians/334185/4 "2005-12-05T16:29:50Z")
> [@BluePitbull](#): > > So how come CHICK and other ultra conservative christian groups hate ACLU ? 😕 > That website was informative. I’d like to hear Bill O’Reilly’s take on that very question. Basically because many Christians aren’t really interested in religious freedom, or at least not for anyone other than themselves. Some people feel that because they subscribe to a majority belief, that they should be “free” to express those beliefs wherever and however they want, including mandating them in public schools and other things our Constitution sorta frowns upon. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-aclu-ever-protected-the-rights-of-some-christians/334185/5 "2005-12-05T16:32:57Z")
From [The ACLU’s Most Important U.S. Supreme Court Victories](http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur59.htm): 1943 West Virginia v. Barnette A groundbreaking decision, made more resonant by its issuance in wartime. The Court championed religious liberty with its holding that a state could not force Jehovah’s Witness children to salute the American flag. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-aclu-ever-protected-the-rights-of-some-christians/334185/6 "2005-12-05T16:34:45Z")
Because the ACLU also resists things like prayer in schools and other issues that Christians want to see enacted. The ACLU gets much more notoriety for working to remove the Ten Commandments from governmental buildings than for issues where they stood up for Christians’ rights. The problem with the ACLU is that they stand up for _anyone’s_ rights. This means they will invariably support people you don’t like. And when they support people you don’t like (whatever your politics), the news is quickly spread by you and others who are indignant about it. Whereas things that support your politics will get a nod from you (again, whoever you are), but you’re less likely to spread the word. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-aclu-ever-protected-the-rights-of-some-christians/334185/7 "2005-12-05T16:43:36Z")
[http://www.aclu.org//religion/tencomm/16254res20050302.html](http://www.aclu.org//religion/tencomm/16254res20050302.html) > [@](#): > > Recent ACLU involvement in religious liberty cases include: > > September 20, 2005: ACLU of New Jersey joins lawsuit supporting second-grader’s right to sing “Awesome God” at a talent show. > > August 4, 2005: ACLU helps free a New Mexico street preacher from prison. > > May 25, 2005: ACLU sues Wisconsin prison on behalf of a Muslim woman who was forced to remove her headscarf in front of male guards and prisoners. > > February 2005: ACLU of Pennsylvania successfully defends the right of an African American Evangelical church to occupy a church building purchased in a predominantly white parish. > > December 22, 2004: ACLU of New Jersey successfully defends right of religious expression by jurors. > > December 14, 2004: ACLU joins Pennsylvania parents in filing first-ever challenge to “Intelligent Design” instruction in public schools. > > November 20, 2004: ACLU of Nevada supports free speech rights of evangelists to preach on the sidewalks of the strip in Las Vegas. > > November 12, 2004: ACLU of Georgia files a lawsuit on behalf of parents challenging evolution disclaimers in science textbooks. > > November 9, 2004: ACLU of Nevada defends a Mormon student who was suspended after wearing a T-shirt with a religious message to school. > > August 11, 2004: ACLU of Nebraska defends church facing eviction by the city of Lincoln. > > July 10, 2004: Indiana Civil Liberties Union defends the rights of a Baptist minister to preach his message on public streets. > > June 9, 2004: ACLU of Nebraska files a lawsuit on behalf of a Muslim woman barred from a public pool because she refused to wear a swimsuit. > > June 3, 2004: Under pressure from the ACLU of Virginia, officials agree not to prohibit baptisms on public property in Falmouth Waterside Park in Stafford County. > > May 11, 2004: After ACLU of Michigan intervened on behalf of a Christian Valedictorian, a public high school agrees to stop censoring religious yearbook entries. > > March 25, 2004: ACLU of Washington defends an Evangelical minister’s right to preach on sidewalks. > > February 21, 2003: ACLU of Massachusetts defends students punished for distributing candy canes with religious messages. > > October 28, 2002: ACLU of Pennsylvania files discrimination lawsuit over denial of zoning permit for African American Baptist church. > > July 11, 2002: ACLU supports right of Iowa students to distribute Christian literature at school. > > April 17, 2002: In a victory for the Rev. Jerry Falwell and the ACLU of Virginia, a federal judge strikes down a provision of the Virginia Constitution that bans religious organizations from incorporating. > > January 18, 2002: ACLU defends Christian church’s right to run “anti-Santa” ads in Boston subways. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-aclu-ever-protected-the-rights-of-some-christians/334185/8 "2005-12-05T16:47:15Z")
> [@BluePitbull](#): > > I hear the ACLU do stuff like wanting the City of Los Angelos to remove the cross off their seal or Sueing a school because it held a Christmas pagent or protecting the rights of the KKK to march. > Any counterexamples? The question’s well answered now, but I reject the OP’s premise that the ACLU isn’t protecting the rights of Christians when it sues on behalf of atheists or the KKK. The ACLU is protecting the rights of all Americans when it pursues these actions, and that includes the majority of Americans who are Christians. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-aclu-ever-protected-the-rights-of-some-christians/334185/9 "2005-12-05T16:47:58Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Because the ACLU also resists things like prayer in schools and other issues that Christians want to see enacted. The ACLU gets much more notoriety for working to remove the Ten Commandments from governmental buildings than for issues where they stood up for Christians’ rights. > > The problem with the ACLU is that they stand up for _anyone’s_ rights. This means they will invariably support people you don’t like. And when they support people you don’t like (whatever your politics), the news is quickly spread by you and others who are indignant about it. Whereas things that support your politics will get a nod from you (again, whoever you are), but you’re less likely to spread the word. Inject **some** into the last clause of that first sentence. And some Christians cannot get it through their heads that the same First Amendment that protects their right to worship as they please protects others’ rights not to. So you get stuff like “freedom of religion, not freedom from religion” or “But that prayer’s not sectarian; how come everybody can’t support it?” I’m a devout Christian who dearly wishes that every Doper would find God and decide to follow Him. And I strongly support the ACLU in defending their right to choose whether or not to do that, ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-aclu-ever-protected-the-rights-of-some-christians/334185/10 "2005-12-05T17:24:56Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Inject **some** into the last clause of that first sentence. And some Christians cannot get it through their heads that the same First Amendment that protects their right to worship as they please protects others’ rights not to. So you get stuff like “freedom of religion, not freedom from religion” or “But that prayer’s not sectarian; how come everybody can’t support it?” They can get it through their heads. They just draw the lines between permissible displays of religion and unpermissible ones differently than you do. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-aclu-ever-protected-the-rights-of-some-christians/334185/11 "2005-12-05T17:38:36Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Because the ACLU also resists things like prayer in schools and other issues that Christians want to see enacted. The ACLU gets much more notoriety for working to remove the Ten Commandments from governmental buildings than for issues where they stood up for Christians’ rights. > > The problem with the ACLU is that they stand up for _anyone’s_ rights. This means they will invariably support people you don’t like. And when they support people you don’t like (whatever your politics), the news is quickly spread by you and others who are indignant about it. Whereas things that support your politics will get a nod from you (again, whoever you are), but you’re less likely to spread the word. I don’t see this as a problem at all. They defend groups like the KKK and other obnoxious fucks, and as long as they’re following constitutional law, I applaud it. Would it be better if some of these groups were taken out by a bout of the plague? Sure! But the groups the ACLU defends deserve to be defended. ---
**Author:** ![ticker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@ticker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ticker)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-aclu-ever-protected-the-rights-of-some-christians/334185/12 "2005-12-05T18:07:41Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > [http://www.aclu.org//religion/tencomm/16254res20050302.html](http://www.aclu.org//religion/tencomm/16254res20050302.html) > > > [@](#): > > > > … > > June 9, 2004: ACLU of Nebraska files a lawsuit on behalf of a Muslim woman barred from a public pool because she refused to wear a swimsuit. > > … Not wanting to lower the tone of an interesting and informative thread, but this just sounds wrong!! ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-aclu-ever-protected-the-rights-of-some-christians/334185/13 "2005-12-05T18:11:21Z")
> [@ticker](#): > > Not wanting to lower the tone of an interesting and informative thread, but this just sounds wrong!! She wanted to wear the discreet garb of an observant, conservative muslim. They thought it was too much clothing for the pool area. At least that’s how I remember it. ---
**Author:** ![ticker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@ticker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ticker)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-aclu-ever-protected-the-rights-of-some-christians/334185/14 "2005-12-05T18:19:09Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > She wanted to wear the discreet garb of an observant, conservative muslim. They thought it was too much clothing for the pool area. At least that’s how I remember it. Phew!! I must drag my mind out of the gutter 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-aclu-ever-protected-the-rights-of-some-christians/334185/15 "2005-12-05T18:44:19Z")
> [@ticker](#): > > Phew!! I must drag my mind out of the gutter 😃 Yeah…somehow, I don’t think the Muslims for Nudity movement caught on in the U.S. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-aclu-ever-protected-the-rights-of-some-christians/334185/16 "2005-12-05T18:46:27Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > The problem with the ACLU is that they stand up for _anyone’s_ rights. Including gun owners? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-aclu-ever-protected-the-rights-of-some-christians/334185/17 "2005-12-05T19:04:36Z")
Essentially the United States is a secular democracy. Some Christians, including Jack Chick and Bill O’Reilly, believe that it should be theocracy, or at least partially theocratic. Hence they hate any group that stands for secular democracy, including the ACLU. [quote] IOnluding gun owners?[\quote] Yup. If anyone ever passes a law making it illegal for gun owners to speak their minds, print a newspaper, worship as they choose, petition the government or get a speedy trial by jury, the ACLU will fight to knock it down. I guarantee it. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-aclu-ever-protected-the-rights-of-some-christians/334185/18 "2005-12-05T19:08:25Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > They can get it through their heads. They just draw the lines between permissible displays of religion and unpermissible ones differently than you do. Perhaps, but I hear precious little from the Religious Right about drawing lines and a great deal of absolutism, victim playing, outrageous accusations and poorly -concealed stealth advocacy for a Christian theocracy. ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-aclu-ever-protected-the-rights-of-some-christians/334185/19 "2005-12-05T19:18:47Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > > [@RealityChuck](#): > > > > The problem with the ACLU is that they stand up for anyone’s rights. > > Including gun owners? This is the only thing about the ACLU that has ever bothered me. They stand up for all the civil rights in the constitution … _except_ for the right to bear arms. But in all fairness, the NRA does such an outstanding job in that arena, they don’t really need the ACLU’s help. ---
**Author:** ![LateComer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b5ac83/32.png) [@LateComer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LateComer)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-aclu-ever-protected-the-rights-of-some-christians/334185/20 "2005-12-05T19:26:40Z")
> [@Ponder Stibbons](#): > > This is the only thing about the ACLU that has ever bothered me. They stand up for all the civil rights in the constitution … _except_ for the right to bear arms. > > But in all fairness, the NRA does such an outstanding job in that arena, they don’t really need the ACLU’s help. In case you’re interested, [here’s the ACLU’s statement on the issue](http://www.aclu.org//police/gen/14523res20020304.html). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-aclu-ever-protected-the-rights-of-some-christians/334185.md?page=2)