# Has the Arab Spring in Egypt turned into an Islamist nightmare? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2012, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-arab-spring-in-egypt-turned-into-an-islamist-nightmare/626419 "2012-06-27T03:14:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-arab-spring-in-egypt-turned-into-an-islamist-nightmare/626419/41 "2012-06-27T18:25:18Z")
[quote=“Ibn\_Warraq, post:36, topic:626419”] > [@](#): > > Lieberman is the head of Yisrael Beiteinu, a fascist party which calls for stripping Israeli Arabs of their citizenship, their motto being “no loyalty, no citizenship”. First of all, has Yisrael Beiteinu called itself a fascist party, or is that what you are calling them? You have also oversimplified their position on loyalty and citizenship. Every country in the world demands a certain level of loyalty. New immigrants and elected legislators normally take oaths to support the constitution or the state. The fact that Israel allows Arab members of the Knesset to openly call for Israel’s destruction is a sign of how profoundly democratic and tolerant Israel is. Try to imagine a Jewish legislator in an Arab country (does such a creature exist?) saying he hopes Israel will conquer his country! Hard to imagine? > [@](#): > > If you objected to fascism and racism I’d assume you’d object to this, but since you freely admit you support racist, fascist thugs in Europe . . . . . Those are your (somewhat libelous) words, not theirs, which you are presumably using to describe groups like the English Defence League and other poplular movements that have sprung up in Europe . RACIST??? Since when is Islam a race? They have black members, Sikh and Hindu members, a gay and lesbian division, and a Jewish division. It is easy to yell “racist” at anyone you don’t like rather than adressing the real issues of concern to these mainly working-class movements who are concerned with the creep of Sharia law and Islamisation in their countries. > [@](#): > > Why is it that you get all hot and bothered about Egypt’s treatment of the Copts yet you don’t seem to give two shits about the exodus of Christian Arabs from Israel to the point that there are now more Christian Palestinians in Chile than in Palestine/Israel? I honestly do not knopw a lot about this subject, but given Israel’s 65 years of tolerance and respect for the Christian religion on its territory (protecting pilgrims at holy sites at Easter and Christmas for example) I would be surprised if Israel is suddenly treating its Christians like Egypt has been treating its Copts. The move to Chile makes me suspect this has something more to do with economic migration and the need for fruit pickers in Chile. But I freely admit I do not know a lot about this alleged persecution. But why is this even relevant? This thread asks, " Has the Arab Spring in Egypt turned into an Islamist nightmare?". Your attempt to “shift the blame” to Israel is a typical tactic for one who has no good arguiments to give about the persecution of Coptic Christians in Egypt. Even if Israel were to kill every Arab in its borders (which of course it would never do, being a humane and democratic state) that would still not change the subject of this thread, would it? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-arab-spring-in-egypt-turned-into-an-islamist-nightmare/626419/42 "2012-06-27T18:26:21Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Syria and Iran may be allies but Syria is a secular, socialist dictatorship which slaughtered the Syrian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood during the revolt against Assad’s father which culminated in the mass slaughter of the town of Hama. > > Egypt has zero chance of becoming anything like Assad’s Syria and, if anything, wasn’t too dissimilar under Mubarak. I understand the difference, I was using the word ‘or’ to contrast the two outcomes that look most likely (successful religious revolution resulting in fundamentalism, or secular oppressive dictatorship) and lamenting the future of Egypt. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-arab-spring-in-egypt-turned-into-an-islamist-nightmare/626419/43 "2012-06-27T18:38:43Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > In short, while I certainly don’t think it’s _impossible_ that Morsi made the remarks in the May 13 speech that are attributed to him by this one source, I still think it hasn’t been convincingly substantiated. All right, since you refuse to believe Morsi said that, let’s leave it aside. What about the video? Does it tell you something that Morsi and what appears to be members of his Muslim Brotherhood are attending the May 1 kickoff of his campaign before a huge crowd and on the same stage as a nutjob cleric who is calling for “millions of martyrs” to attack Israel. Morsi and his buddies as well as the crowd, clearly approve of what this warmongering demagogue is saying. Incidentally, from the forest of microphones in front of the cleric, it is obvious that this event was widely reported and broadcast. And yet, I do not remember seeing it reported in the English-speaking media. Now, you have said that western networks would surely have had Arabic-speaking reporters who would have reported the May 13 comments at Cairo University if he had made them. So how is it that this May 1 kickoff, complete with a nutjob cleric calling for millions of martyrs, which was clearly attended by Morsi (look at the video) is apparently not reported in English elsewhere than this special English translation supplied by the Memri service? I will admit I am wrong if it was reported elsewhere in English. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-arab-spring-in-egypt-turned-into-an-islamist-nightmare/626419/44 "2012-06-27T18:43:00Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > I honestly do not knopw a lot about this subject, but given Israel’s 65 years of tolerance and respect for the Christian religion on its territory (protecting pilgrims at holy sites at Easter and Christmas for example) I would be surprised if Israel is suddenly treating its Christians like Egypt has been treating its Copts. The move to Chile makes me suspect this has something more to do with economic migration and the need for fruit pickers in Chile. But I freely admit I do not know a lot about this alleged persecution. While it’s not “sudden”, it’s certainly true that the Israeli occupation has displaced and oppressed many Arab Christians in the occupied territories. An example is the [expansion of Israeli settlements between Jerusalem and Bethlehem](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/22/jesus-the-year-bethlehem-closed?newsfeed=true), which has a significant (but shrinking) Christian population: > [@](#): > > A strip of Israeli settlements built on 18 sq km of what was once northern Bethlehem threatens to cut the city off from its historic twin, Jerusalem. […] > > But this ring of settlements will permanently change the geography of the biblical landscape: if a peace agreement razes the separation wall, the two cities will remain divided. > > Israeli activist Hargit Ofram, director of Peace Now, reads a clear political intention in Israel’s plans: "These efforts are being made to prevent a possible two-state solution because in order for that to work, you would need a viable Palestinian state with its capital in East Jerusalem. > > “If that capital is going to be surrounded by settlements, Israel would have to remove them. The more Israel is building, the higher the price of a Palestinian state is becoming.” […] > > Dr Jad Isaac, an expert in Bethlehem’s demographics and a consultant to the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, says aside from the physical restrictions on development, Bethlehem’s economy is being strangled by the loss of land and restrictions on Palestinian movement. > > With work in Jerusalem now impossible to all but the 6,000 granted permits to work inside Israel, unemployment in Bethlehem sits at 23%, poverty levels simmer at 18%. Many have little option but to work illegally for £25 a day building the nearby settlements. Dr Isaac’s forecast is bleak. > > “The little town of Bethlehem? It will soon be the little ghetto surrounded in all directions by Israeli settlements,” he predicts. “We’ve already passed the stage where Bethlehem can be saved. Frankly, that’s why I don’t celebrate Christmas any more.” Your cheery speculation that the emigration of Christians from Israel may be less about oppression and more about a spontaneous desire to pick fruit in Chile does not appear to be borne out by the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-arab-spring-in-egypt-turned-into-an-islamist-nightmare/626419/45 "2012-06-27T19:03:46Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Incidentally, from the forest of microphones in front of the cleric, it is obvious that this event was widely reported and broadcast. And yet, I do not remember seeing it reported in the English-speaking media. “Breaking news on CNN! Someone in the Middle East says something intemperate! Join Wolf Blitzer for continuing coverage!” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-arab-spring-in-egypt-turned-into-an-islamist-nightmare/626419/46 "2012-06-27T19:06:48Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > So how is it that this May 1 kickoff, complete with a nutjob cleric calling for millions of martyrs, which was clearly attended by Morsi (look at the video) is apparently not reported in English elsewhere than this special English translation supplied by the Memri service? I will admit I am wrong if it was reported elsewhere in English. No shame in being wrong. As a matter of fact, contrary to your earlier insinuation that instances of Islamist radicalism aren’t “publicized” internationally in English by Arabs/Muslims themselves because “that’s not the face they want to show to the west”, Hegazi’s endorsement of Morsi at this rally was reported in no less a source than the May 8 [AhramOnline](http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/36/122/41182/Presidential-elections-/Presidential-elections-news/Brotherhoods-Morsi-to-apply-Islamic-Law-in-Egypt-i.aspx), the online English-language version of the respected Cairo daily _Al-Ahram_. (The article also includes some interesting details about in-house political maneuvering which are seldom discussed in the usually rather simplistic reporting of MENA politics in western media.) > [@](#): > > In a related development, prominent Egyptian cleric Safwat Hegazi threw his weight behind Morsi’s presidential campaign, comparing the Brotherhood candidate to celebrated medieval Muslim leader Salah Al-Din, who united the Muslim world, vanquished the crusaders and liberated Jerusalem from the foreign invaders. > > Morsi, Hegazi declared, “is the one who will lead us to Jerusalem.” > > Hegazi, a member of Egypt’s Islamic Legitimate Body of Rights and Reform, said his organisation would back Morsi’s presidential bid because Morsi represented “the only candidate who has promised to apply Islamic Law.” > > Morsi is currently vying with renegade Islamist candidate Abdel-Moneim Abul-Fotouh for the hotly-contested Islamist vote. Recent weeks have seen several major Islamist parties and movements come out in support of Abul-Fotouh’s presidential bid, including the moderate-Islamist Wasat Party, Al-Jamaaa Al-Islamiya, Alexandria’s Salafist Calling and the Salafist Nour Party. > > Several of these parties and movements have already issued calls for the immediate application of Islamic Law in Egypt. Some observers see Morsi’s promise to apply Islamic Law as a bid to woo the Islamist vote. > > Abul-Fotouh is a former member of the Muslim Brotherhood but was expelled from the group after last year’s revolution due to his insistence on running for president, despite the group’s stated policy of refraining from fielding a candidate. The Brotherhood, however, later changed its position in this regard, fielding Morsi at the last minute as its official candidate. ETA: And for mercy’s sake, this was even discussed recently [in the Israeli publication Haaretz](http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/profile-egypt-s-mohammed-morsi-goes-from-prisoner-to-president-1.443597): > [@](#): > > Another cleric, the independent Safwat el-Hegazi, added a radical flavour to Morsi’s early campaign, taking to the stage at his events to call for a Muslim super-state across the Middle East with Jerusalem as its capital - a direct challenge to Israel with whom Mubarak maintained a 33-year-old peace treaty. > > Morsi subsequently distanced himself from such statements, but not before the Shafiq campaign had used them to great effect to paint the Brotherhood’s man as a dangerous radical. > > Asked about Hegazy’s remarks, Morsi later spoke of European Union-style integration for the Arab world and an Arab common market. “Jerusalem is in our hearts and vision,” he said. “But Cairo is Egypt’s capital.” ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-arab-spring-in-egypt-turned-into-an-islamist-nightmare/626419/47 "2012-06-27T19:23:39Z")
[quote=“Kimstu, post:46, topic:626419”] No shame in being wrong. As a matter of fact, contrary to your earlier insinuation that instances of Islamist radicalism aren’t “publicized” internationally in English by Arabs/Muslims themselves because “that’s not the face they want to show to the west”, Hegazi’s endorsement of Morsi at this rally was reported in no less a source than the May 8 [AhramOnline](http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/36/122/41182/Presidential-elections-/Presidential-elections-news/Brotherhoods-Morsi-to-apply-Islamic-Law-in-Egypt-i.aspx), the online English-language version of the respected Cairo daily _Al-Ahram_. I suspected it probably had been reported in English elsewhere, which is why I said I was capable of correction. But how reassuring do you find the promise to apply Sharia law as soon as possible? Once again, is this an emerging democracy or an emerging Islamist theocracy? ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-arab-spring-in-egypt-turned-into-an-islamist-nightmare/626419/48 "2012-06-27T19:26:45Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > No shame in being wrong. As a matter of fact, contrary to your earlier insinuation that instances of Islamist radicalism aren’t “publicized” internationally in English by Arabs/Muslims themselves because “that’s not the face they want to show to the west”, Hegazi’s endorsement of Morsi at this rally was reported in no less a source than the May 8 [AhramOnline](http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/36/122/41182/Presidential-elections-/Presidential-elections-news/Brotherhoods-Morsi-to-apply-Islamic-Law-in-Egypt-i.aspx), the online English-language version of the respected Cairo daily _Al-Ahram_. (The article also includes some interesting details about in-house political maneuvering which are seldom discussed in the usually rather simplistic reporting of MENA politics in western media.) I suspected it appeared in some English-langauge reports, although I doubt if most westerners are aware that Morsi had his rally kicked off by this extremist nutjob. But how reassuring do you find the promise to apply Sharia law as soon as possible? Once again, is this an emerging democracy or an emerging Islamist theocracy? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-arab-spring-in-egypt-turned-into-an-islamist-nightmare/626419/49 "2012-06-27T19:26:47Z")
Despite the deeply loaded question in the thread title, I think the evidence so far says the military is going to call the shots in Egypt. Islamist or not, the elected government looks like window dressing. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-arab-spring-in-egypt-turned-into-an-islamist-nightmare/626419/50 "2012-06-27T19:29:46Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > While it’s not “sudden”, it’s certainly true that the Israeli occupation has displaced and oppressed many Arab Christians in the occupied territories. An example is the [expansion of Israeli settlements between Jerusalem and Bethlehem](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/22/jesus-the-year-bethlehem-closed?newsfeed=true), which has a significant (but shrinking) Christian population: > > Your cheery speculation that the emigration of Christians from Israel may be less about oppression and more about a spontaneous desire to pick fruit in Chile does not appear to be borne out by the facts. Be that as it may (and I doubt the objectivity of this article) if you want to start a thread to take shots at Israel, I suggest you do so. The subject of this thread is “Has the Arab Spring in Egypt turned into an Islamist nightmare?” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-arab-spring-in-egypt-turned-into-an-islamist-nightmare/626419/51 "2012-06-27T19:41:22Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > I suspected it appeared in some English-langauge reports, although I doubt if most westerners are aware that Morsi had his rally kicked off by this extremist nutjob. You have a cute way of pronouncing “I admit I was wrong”. As for the availability of this information to westerners who don’t read English-language versions of _Al-Ahram_ or _Haaretz_, they could also have found out about it from blog articles such as this one [in _Commentary_](http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2012/05/16/muslim-brotherhood-goes-hardline-election-day-nears/#more-793865). And oh yeah, it also happens to have been reported [in the June 12 Yahoo!News](http://news.yahoo.com/newsmaker-brotherhood-reels-blow-ahead-egypt-vote-164904763--business.html). ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-arab-spring-in-egypt-turned-into-an-islamist-nightmare/626419/52 "2012-06-27T19:44:22Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Be that as it may (and I doubt the objectivity of this article) if you want to start a thread to take shots at Israel, I suggest you do so. No shots taken. You posted in this thread some speculations about the situation of Arab Christians in Israel and remarked that it was a subject you didn’t know much about, so I provided some information. In other words, you’re welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-arab-spring-in-egypt-turned-into-an-islamist-nightmare/626419/53 "2012-06-27T19:51:41Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Be that as it may (and I doubt the objectivity of this article) if you want to start a thread to take shots at Israel, I suggest you do so. The subject of this thread is “Has the Arab Spring in Egypt turned into an Islamist nightmare?” This comment is moronic. You were the one who decided bring up Israel in the OP by stupidly declaring them “the only democracy in the Middle East” and revealing your ignorance about the region. Had you not mentioned Israel in your post and made such an ignorant statement about Israel, I wouldn’t have brought up Israel’s treatment of it’s Christian Arab minority. BTW, I nearly pissed myself laughing at your comment about Chrustian Arabs going to Chile to be grape pickers. No, they’re mostly educated middle class folk that leave because Israel openly discriminates against them and doesn’t like the idea of Arabs, whether Christian or Muslim, being more than menial laborers. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-arab-spring-in-egypt-turned-into-an-islamist-nightmare/626419/54 "2012-06-27T20:31:39Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Be that as it may (and I doubt the objectivity of this article) if you want to start a thread to take shots at Israel, I suggest you do so. The subject of this thread is “Has the Arab Spring in Egypt turned into an Islamist nightmare?” Hunh, there and I thought the subject was: “Are you going to blindly agree with **Valteron** or are you going to shut up?” ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-arab-spring-in-egypt-turned-into-an-islamist-nightmare/626419/55 "2012-06-27T20:45:58Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > You have a cute way of pronouncing “I admit I was wrong”. > > As for the availability of this information to westerners who don’t read English-language versions of _Al-Ahram_ or _Haaretz_, they could also have found out about it from blog articles such as this one [in _Commentary_](http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2012/05/16/muslim-brotherhood-goes-hardline-election-day-nears/#more-793865). And oh yeah, it also happens to have been reported [in the June 12 Yahoo!News](http://news.yahoo.com/newsmaker-brotherhood-reels-blow-ahead-egypt-vote-164904763--business.html). I said “most westerners”. You figure the sources you mentioned would normally be read by the majority of people in western countries, do you? Besides, whether or not most people in the west are aware of it or not is only a side-issue of a side-issue. If more people than I thought in the western democracies are aware of this man’s friendship with Islamist nut cases like this warmongering cleric. I said “Hooray”. My point is that when the \*\*SUCCESFUL \*\*Presidental candidate for an Islamist organization like the Muslim Brotherhood kicks off his campaign on Egyptian TV smiling and apparently assenting, on the same stage, with the fanatical filth spouted by this cleric, then I think I know how we should answer the topic of the OP, namely, “Has the Arab Spring in Egypt turned into an Islamist nightmare?” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-arab-spring-in-egypt-turned-into-an-islamist-nightmare/626419/56 "2012-06-27T20:49:11Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > My point is that when the \*\*SUCCESFUL \*\*Presidental candidate for an Islamist organization like the Muslim Brotherhood kicks off his campaign on Egyptian TV smiling and apparently assenting, on the same stage, with the fanatical filth spouted by this cleric, then I think I know how we should answer the topic of the OP, namely, “Has the Arab Spring in Egypt turned into an Islamist nightmare?” So, this is like when Reverend Wright said “God damn America!” and then Obama got elected, which is the point at which the United States turned into a freedom-hating nightmare. You could hardly make a more convincing argument. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-arab-spring-in-egypt-turned-into-an-islamist-nightmare/626419/57 "2012-06-27T21:08:11Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So, this is like when Reverend Wright said “God damn America!” and then Obama got elected, which is the point at which the United States turned into a freedom-hating nightmare. You could hardly make a more convincing argument. Your analogy isn’t right—It would be true only if Obama had been seated right next to Rev Wright, and Obama had smiled at the cameras while Wright was speaking. In reality, there are no analogies between Muslim extremists and American Christian extremists. And people who automatically reply to threads about Muslims by saying that America has religious fanatics too are missing the point. Yeah, there is a crazy pastor or two who want to burn Korans. But only one or two, and even they _still abide by the US Constitution_, with separation of church and state. There is zero chance that,say, fundamentalist Baptists will change the foundation of American society and its legal system and abolish the first ammendment. There is zero chance that America will stop holding free elections every 4 years. There is zero chance that Rev Wright will ever be in charge. There is a very,very real chance that Egypt will adopt Shariah law. There is a very,very real chance that Egypt’s first free election will be its last, and that the imams will be in charge for several generations.With several billion dollars worth of the best American miltary equipment. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-arab-spring-in-egypt-turned-into-an-islamist-nightmare/626419/58 "2012-06-27T21:10:00Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So, this is like when Reverend Wright said “God damn America!” and then Obama got elected, which is the point at which the United States turned into a freedom-hating nightmare. You could hardly make a more convincing argument. Proportion, proportion, proportion. Did the Reverend Wright make an imperialist, warmongering speech like this guy that went on for maybe 10 minutes while the crowd cheered and Obama smiled and nodded his asent? I know the Islamist apologists are really scraping the bottom of the barrel when they are completely unable to excuse the Egyptian President hobnobbing with this lunatic, and can do nothing more than desperately search for “tu quoque” arguments from America, no matter how dissimilar they are. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-arab-spring-in-egypt-turned-into-an-islamist-nightmare/626419/59 "2012-06-27T21:15:53Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Hunh, there and I thought the subject was: “Are you going to blindly agree with **Valteron** or are you going to shut up?” Yeah, silly me for thinking it would be helpful to provide information and evidence about topics discussed in the thread. I never learn, do I? > [@Valteron](#): > > I said “most westerners”. You figure the sources you mentioned would normally be read by the majority of people in western countries, do you? You’re pretty nimble with those goalposts, I must say. You started out asking _"how is it that this May 1 kickoff […] is apparently not reported in English elsewhere than this special English translation supplied by the Memri service?_". So I responded with cites to show that it **was** reported in English elsewhere, both in MENA-published media and in western media. Now you’re trying to shift the question to whether these English-language reports “would normally be read by the majority of people in western countries”. Well, okay. Considering that that Yahoo!News article I linked to was a [Reuters report](http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/15/us-egypt-election-morsy-idUSBRE85E0ZI20120615) that was picked up on newsfeeds from [houstonlively.com](http://houstonlively.com/news/feed/newsmaker-brotherhood-reels-from-blow-ahead-of-egypt-vote) to [newspresents.com](http://newspresents.com/2012/06/newsmaker-brotherhood-reels-from-blow-ahead-of-egypt-vote-reuters/) to [topnewstoday.org](http://business.topnewstoday.org/business/article/2544245/) to [googleitv.com](http://googleitv.com/news/2012/06/newsmaker-brotherhood-reels-from-blow-ahead-of-egypt-vote-reuters/) and many others, then I think this falls squarely in the “mainstream international news” category. > [@Valteron](#): > > Besides, whether or not most people in the west are aware of it or not is only a side-issue of a side-issue. That’s quite a nifty little forensic bait-and-switch routine you’ve got going there. **Valteron** : [some ill-supported claim] **Some Other Poster** : [rebuttal] **Valteron** : [speculative justification rationalizing the desired answer] **Some Other Poster** : [evidence contradicting the speculation] **Valteron** : [shifts to more guarded modified version of ill-supported claim] **Some Other Poster** : [rebuttal of modified version] **Valteron** : _That’s not relevant! Stop trying to derail the discussion with side issues!_ **Some Other Poster** : :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-arab-spring-in-egypt-turned-into-an-islamist-nightmare/626419/60 "2012-06-27T21:17:26Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > My point is that when the \*\*SUCCESFUL \*\*Presidental candidate for an Islamist organization like the Muslim Brotherhood So successful he might’ve even gotten the most votes- not that we’ll ever know. > [@](#): > > “Has the Arab Spring in Egypt turned into an Islamist nightmare?” I’m still wondering if you could possibly have phrased this question in a more loaded way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-arab-spring-in-egypt-turned-into-an-islamist-nightmare/626419.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-arab-spring-in-egypt-turned-into-an-islamist-nightmare/626419.md?page=4)