# Has the Iraq war made the U.S. safer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 22, 2003, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-iraq-war-made-the-u-s-safer/196983 "2003-08-22T18:21:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-iraq-war-made-the-u-s-safer/196983/41 "2003-08-23T16:36:57Z")
I was going to type a sarcastic response, but I think I’ll take the high road. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > **Terrorism has been negotiated away and appeased for decades. It’s gotten worse.** I hate it when people do this (because it’s annoying and not really much of an argument), but – cite? Particularly on the “It’s gotten worse” bit. \*\* > [@](#): > > I fail to see how more appeasement, negotiation, and ‘understanding’ is going to do anything but have them treat the west with even more contempt.\*\* “Even more contempt”? So, what, next time, they’ll blow up three towers instead of two? Either the terrorists hate us but respect us as a worthy adversary, or they hate us and hate everything about us. I guess what I’m asking is: how much more contempt can they show us? \*\* > [@](#): > > It was time to put Marines in the mud. Time to take the fight to the enemy. Time to show them just how tough American soldiers can be.\*\* I’m gonna ask you to do some more research here to support your point. Do you have any evidence that a show of force tends to cause non-traditional, guerrila, underdog, terrorist-type enemies to submit? I’m thinking of situations like Afghanistan vs. the Soviet Union, the US vs. Vietnam, Russia vs. Checnya, Israel vs. Palestine, and other situations I’m less familiar with, like the Tamil Tigers or the Basque Separatists. Hell, you could even get historical: the American Revolution (or just about any revolution, really), the Indian independence movement (or, again, just about any independence movement), and so forth. It strikes me that it’s very, very difficult (albeit not unprecedented) for an invader to win the peace simply by invading. If this is your thesis – that “We’re bringing the fight to YOU” will cause the terrorists to lose heart and give up – I find it sorely lacking. Unless you can offer some extraordinary evidence to bolster it. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-iraq-war-made-the-u-s-safer/196983/42 "2003-08-23T16:39:38Z")
> [@](#): > > “For every American they kill, 20 terrorists are killed or captured.” > > Now whose policies of retribution does THAT one remind me of? I don’t know, because I’m not talking about retribution. I’m talking about the fact that American soldiers are very hard to kill, and they are taking the fight to the enemy rather than just sit around being shot at. We’re not talking about, “Kill one of us, and we’ll round up your family and shoot them”, which is what the Russians did in Afghanistan, and which you are insinuating I meant. The fact is, the Americans are getting good intel from the Iraqi people, and they are using it to capture or kill the enemy. ‘Chemical Ali’ was captured the other day. That made the news, because he was a big, big fish. How many other captures do you think go on all the time that we don’t hear about because they’re just regional commanders, lieutenants, etc.? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-iraq-war-made-the-u-s-safer/196983/43 "2003-08-23T16:51:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by quixotic78 \* > **I hate it when people do this (because it’s annoying and not really much of an argument), but – cite? Particularly on the “It’s [terrorism has] gotten worse” bit.** Obviously, 9/11 was worse than past terrorism. Also, al Qaeda has perpetrated some horrendous attacks outside the US, such as the bomb in Bali. ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-iraq-war-made-the-u-s-safer/196983/44 "2003-08-23T17:38:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **Obviously, 9/11 was worse than past terrorism.** Yeah, but has the number of terrorist attacks increased in recent years or decreased? One example does not a trend make. Maybe I (we?) should ask \*\*Sam[b/] for clarification of his “It’s gotten worse” statement (It = terrorism). ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-iraq-war-made-the-u-s-safer/196983/45 "2003-08-23T17:40:39Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by quixotic78 \* > \*\* One example does not a trend make._\* Just a quibble, but my post actually included two examples. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-iraq-war-made-the-u-s-safer/196983/46 "2003-08-23T19:36:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **Saddam’s regime was made up of belligerant Arabs, mostly Islamic\** No. It. Wasn’t. It. Was. SECULAR. Where exactly do you get your erroneous information/misguided beliefs about the Ba’ath administration from? Because as any fule kno, the whole thing about the Saddam’s party was that it was a SECULAR party, NOT an Islamic party. I just cannot understand the depth of your ignorance on this matter. Please let me know what sources you are using and I will personally write to them to correct and de-misinform them. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-iraq-war-made-the-u-s-safer/196983/47 "2003-08-23T19:51:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > \*\*No. It. Wasn’t. > > It. Was. SECULAR. > > Where exactly do you get your erroneous information/misguided beliefs about the Ba’ath administration from? Because as any fule kno, the whole thing about the Saddam’s party was that it was a SECULAR party, NOT an Islamic party. > > I just cannot understand the depth of your ignorance on this matter. Please let me know what sources you are using and I will personally write to them to correct and de-misinform them. \*\* Please read more carefully, **istara**. Of course the Ba’ath Party was secular. Taraq Aziz, former deputy prime minister and government spokesman, is Christian. But, what I said was that _most of the individual who made up Iraq’s Ba’ath Party were Muslims_. That was an entirely true statement. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-iraq-war-made-the-u-s-safer/196983/48 "2003-08-23T19:52:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > \*\*There’s no Saddam, and no WMDs, but according to our own generals, terrorists are operating in Iraq. We have 139,000 troops there, along with another ~20,000 allied troops. But that’s not enough to provide security and maintain order in a country that large, so there’s plenty of room for terrorists and criminals to operate. \*\* I’ve been hearing this thrown around, lately, mainly from John Kerry’s camp, and it doesn’t make any sense. How many troops do you need to stave off terrorists and criminals and limit their room to operate? The head of our armed forces in Iraq doesn’t think he needs more troops, and he’s in a position to know. Terrorism works because it sidesteps massive military force. More force won’t help. Look at the Israelis. For all their military might they still have terror attacks. The problem doesn’t have anything to do with force. We have all the force we need. The problem is figuring out where to apply that force, finding the terrorists. More force presents more targets for terorrists. It represents a bigger and more obvious imposition upon the Iraqi people and hence more resentment. At this stage more troops, more force and more problems is what the terrorists want us to do. Think it through. I strongly disagree. More force is not what’s needed. We have all the force we need. What we need is targets for the force we have. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-iraq-war-made-the-u-s-safer/196983/49 "2003-08-23T20:00:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \*But, what I said was that _most of the individual who made up Iraq’s Ba’ath Party were Muslims_. That was an entirely true statement. \*\* No you didn’t - you said they were “mostly Islamic.” Obviously they are going to be mostly muslims in a muslim Arab country. So giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that you genuinely meant “muslim” not “islamist” - exactly what relevance does it have in any way that they were muslims? ---
**Author:** ![anewthought](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@anewthought](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anewthought)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-iraq-war-made-the-u-s-safer/196983/50 "2003-08-23T20:02:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Many terrorists are already making war on us; we need to make war on them. 1. Iraq wasn’t part of the ‘terrorists’ you mention, sorry. Well, at least before the war. They will be now. GJ Dumbya. 2. Israel has already shown us how driving in tanks and troops stops terrorists. See how well they have stopped all the suicide bombers (not)? > [@](#): > > We may not see the improved safety until we actually win the war on terror, which could take many years. The last time I checked, the only way to find cockroaches who live and hide among normal citizens was with the co-operation of our friends in those nations hunting the people down. Kinda hard to rely on that type of support when you’re pissing everyone else off, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![anewthought](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@anewthought](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anewthought)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-iraq-war-made-the-u-s-safer/196983/51 "2003-08-23T20:05:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > It is as simple as seeing where so many terrorists are now focusing their efforts: Iraq. (And, to a lesser extent, Afghanistan.) By siphoning off many of the hot-headed Islamists in the region, (and their money/resources), there are less hot-headed Islamists that are thinking about how swell it would be to take out the Sears Tower. We are killing terrorists as fast as we can find them. Iraq is now serving the invaluable purpose of drawing the little buggers out of the woodwork; Skimming the pond of radical Islam. \*\* Too bad the anger caused by our occupation of Iraq is actually **creating** ‘hot-headed islamists’ faster than we can kill them off. I suppose it doesn’t really click to you that pissing people off in the middle ast drives them to militant islam. ---
**Author:** ![anewthought](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@anewthought](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anewthought)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-iraq-war-made-the-u-s-safer/196983/52 "2003-08-23T20:09:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > What would help a lot is if the entire country stood up, and offered a message of resolve: _Give us your best shot. We’re as tough as you are, and smarter._ > > That’s why I liked Bush’s _Bring it on!_ comment. It was the perfect message, in the perfect tone. Everyone should be saying the same thing. Righhhht. Let’s actually encourage angry arabs to turn to militant islam and attack us. That is easily the smartest thing we could possibly do to enhance our national security. What a dumbass. It takes, what? Only 20 arabs to bring down 3000+ lives and the WTC? Let’s take a guess at how many pissed off arabs Bush & co. have pushed towards militant islam with comments like that and an unecessary attack on Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-iraq-war-made-the-u-s-safer/196983/53 "2003-08-23T20:12:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > No you didn’t - you said they were “mostly Islamic.” Obviously they are going to be mostly muslims in a muslim Arab country. Exactly. Saying someone is Islamic" is just another way of saying he’s a Muslim. I never said that the regime was “Islamist”. That’s your word. So your insults were completely out of line. You owe me an apology. I also don’t like your claim to be giving me the benefit of the doubt. All you offered was to assume that I meant what I wrote. I’ll answer your question after you apologize. ---
**Author:** ![anewthought](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@anewthought](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anewthought)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-iraq-war-made-the-u-s-safer/196983/54 "2003-08-23T20:15:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > The fact is, the Americans are getting good intel from the Iraqi people, and they are using it to capture or kill the enemy. ‘Chemical Ali’ was captured the other day. That made the news, because he was a big, big fish. How many other captures do you think go on all the time that we don’t hear about because they’re just regional commanders, lieutenants, etc.? \*\* Wow, that’s just great. Too bad none of these ‘deck of cards’ were of imminent or immediate threat to the USA like Al-Qaeda is. This is like having a burgler breaking into my home with a gun, but the cops run outside and arrest my neighbor and say ‘look, you’re all safe now!’. No, the burgler is still inside my home with his gun. ---
**Author:** ![anewthought](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@anewthought](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anewthought)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-iraq-war-made-the-u-s-safer/196983/55 "2003-08-23T20:21:02Z")
“Speak softly and carry a big stick.” The use of this proverb in english appears to have begun with Theodore Roosevelt. He is quoted as saying ‘I have always been fond of the West African proverb - speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far.’ Bush & Co. have a philosophy too: “Speak like an ass, offend your friends and enrage your enemies. Oh, and make sure you have a really big stick because you’re definately going to need it.” ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-iraq-war-made-the-u-s-safer/196983/56 "2003-08-23T20:23:33Z")
Apologise for what, **december**? You still haven’t explained the meaning of your comment that Ba’ath party members were “mostly Islamic.” What is the relevance of it? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-iraq-war-made-the-u-s-safer/196983/57 "2003-08-23T21:58:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > How many troops do you need to stave off terrorists and criminals and limit their room to operate? According to Gen. Eric K. Shinseki, the Army’s chief of staff before the war, in his testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in early March, “something on the order of several hundred thousand soldiers” would be required to occupy a postwar Iraq. ([link.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29303-2003Aug21.html)) > [@](#): > > The head of our armed forces in Iraq doesn’t think he needs more troops, and he’s in a position to know. If he doesn’t mind the way things are going, then life’s good, from his perspective. But when [45 people a day](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/08/18/wirq118.xml&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=54290) are getting killed in Baghdad alone, as opposed to about 1 a day in NYC, I can’t see it the same way he does. > [@](#): > > Terrorism works because it sidesteps massive military force. More force won’t help. Look at the Israelis. For all their military might they still have terror attacks. Forget terror for a moment; I’m talking about civil order. The Israelis have the latter, even though they’ve also got the former. The Iraqis don’t. We’ve got to provide it for them. > [@](#): > > More force presents more targets for terorrists. It represents a bigger and more obvious imposition upon the Iraqi people and hence more resentment. Well, such is life. Nobody asked us to take on this job; we chose it for ourselves, while not admitting to ourselves how difficult it was going to be. The question remains: are we going to continue to try to do it on the cheap, or is the Administration going to lay out a believable road map to a defined objective (“democracy” is too vague to suggest that anyone in the Administration actually knows what they’re trying to do), acknowledge just how much it’s going to cost - in terms of lives as well as money, and then try to sell that course to the American people? I fully expect the Bushies to choose option A. They apparently still believe things will magically work out. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-iraq-war-made-the-u-s-safer/196983/58 "2003-08-23T22:12:29Z")
Let’s face it, one big message of the Iraq war, to every third-world government that’s less than 100% in our corner, is: **get nukes.** Once you’ve got nukes, like North Korea, you’re beyond the reach of Shock And Awe. If countries like North Korea, Iran, and Pakistan can have nuclear weapons, there are a bunch of other third-world countries that can also develop them. And if we have a bunch of third-world countries with nukes, some of them will use them. We probably won’t be the target, but the fallout, metaphorically speaking, will still find us. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-iraq-war-made-the-u-s-safer/196983/59 "2003-08-23T22:12:48Z")
Interestingly, I just came across this article from the Independent: [http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle\_east/story.jsp?story=436639](http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=436639) > [@](#): > > \*\*‘Half a million troops needed to bring Iraq under control’ > > There was mounting criticism of Britain’s response to the deteriorating security situation in Iraq in the wake of the ambush in Basra that killed three Royal Military Police. > > Several leading defence experts called for more troops to be drafted in, and a groundswell of voices calling for the entire security operation to be put under the aegis of the UN was beginning to grow. > > \ > > Since 1 May, 135 US troops have been killed, 64 of them in combat, a rate of attrition which, if it continued at the present rate, would mean that Mr Bush would be presenting himself for re-election in November 2004 with a record of some 700 US troops dead since the war’s declared end. \*\* That last figure in particular is somewhat startling. But “half a million troops” is a hell of a lot of soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-iraq-war-made-the-u-s-safer/196983/60 "2003-08-23T23:01:10Z")
I think more people around the world like us less, have more reasons for revenge, than before we meddled in Iraq and invaded them without provocation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-iraq-war-made-the-u-s-safer/196983.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-iraq-war-made-the-u-s-safer/196983.md?page=4)