# Has the left empowered Putin? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 14, 2019, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-left-empowered-putin/827760 "2019-01-14T21:32:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-left-empowered-putin/827760/41 "2019-01-15T14:28:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Quartz** : > > Get a clue. Of course Russia tried to interfere with the American elections to its benefit. Just as America tried and still tries to interfere with Russia, with China, with India, and everyone else to the benefit of America. Just as China tries to interfere with elections in other countries to the benefit of China. Just as every other country tries to their own benefit. This is the real world and it’s dirty and nasty out there beneath the surface and not a Panglossian utopia of fluffy bunnies. Yes, of course every nation of any significance tries to interfere with every other nation of any significance. That’s not the issue here. The issue here is who was trying to help other nations to interfere with our nation. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-left-empowered-putin/827760/42 "2019-01-15T15:06:13Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Get a clue. Of course Russia tried to interfere with the American elections to its benefit. Just as America tried and still tries to interfere with Russia, with China, with India, and everyone else to the benefit of America. Just as China tries to interfere with elections in other countries to the benefit of China. Just as every other country tries to their own benefit. This is the real world and it’s dirty and nasty out there beneath the surface and not a Panglossian utopia of fluffy bunnies. Jesus Christ. You really don’t get it, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-left-empowered-putin/827760/43 "2019-01-15T15:43:55Z")
> [@Cabbage](#): > > While impeachment may have been threatened other times, impeachment has only happened twice: Bill Clinton and Andrew Johnson. True, but I specified proceedings, not actual impeachment. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-left-empowered-putin/827760/44 "2019-01-15T16:54:28Z")
The thing is, that even before the Russian interference came to light, Trump seemed to be suspiciously cozy with Putin. A list of Trumps (mostly) praising quotes about Putin, most of them before becoming president: > **[80 times Trump talked about Putin](https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2017/03/politics/trump-putin-russia-timeline/)** > > A CNN KFile review of Trump’s statements reveals that Trump has contradicted himself over the years about the nature of his relationship with Putin and about his business dealings in Russia. Including making sure that support for Ukraine against Russia was removed from the Republican platform. > **[2016 RNC Delegate: Trump Directed Change To Party Platform On Ukraine Support](https://www.npr.org/2017/12/04/568310790/2016-rnc-delegate-trump-directed-change-to-party-platform-on-ukraine-support)** > > A Republican delegate to the convention says a Trump campaign aide claimed Trump had directed him to weaken support for U.S. aid to Ukraine. Congressional investigators are looking into it. If he’s not involved with Russia he is sure doing a good job of pretending he is. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-left-empowered-putin/827760/45 "2019-01-15T17:48:42Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Get a clue. Of course Russia tried to interfere with the American elections to its benefit. Just as America tried and still tries to interfere with Russia, with China, with India, and everyone else to the benefit of America. Just as China tries to interfere with elections in other countries to the benefit of China. Just as every other country tries to their own benefit. This is the real world and it’s dirty and nasty out there beneath the surface and not a Panglossian utopia of fluffy bunnies. I’m sure other countries have offered illegal assistance to plenty of presidential candidates. But have any previous candidates accepted it? I’m not saying we should impeach Putin for offering bribes. I’m saying we should impeach Trump for taking bribes. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-left-empowered-putin/827760/46 "2019-01-15T17:52:08Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > Was the first draft of this written in 2017? FYI, here is the 2017 thread on exactly this (dumb ass) topic: [Russian Foes of Putin to US Liberals: “STOP Making Putin Out to Be a Mastermind!!!”](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=844557) ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-left-empowered-putin/827760/47 "2019-01-15T18:03:13Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > If Mueller has nothing on Trump,. Yeah, I’ll stop right there. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-left-empowered-putin/827760/48 "2019-01-15T18:43:20Z")
> [@Ancient\_Erudite](#): > > If no proof of collusion is found, and nothing shows a single vote was comprised, what type of political damage has the President of the United States sustained? Might Putin be the biggest winner of this Russian interference business? If the president is cleared then no damage. Indeed I think it will help him since he has said all along this is a witch hunt. If there is no evidence of wrong doing he will be pointing to it at every opportunity to show that he was right and his supporters will feel emboldened whereas his opponents will have had the wind taken out of their sails. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-left-empowered-putin/827760/49 "2019-01-15T18:59:13Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Get a clue. Of course Russia tried to interfere with the American elections to its benefit. Just as America tried and still tries to interfere with Russia, with China, with India, and everyone else to the benefit of America. Just as China tries to interfere with elections in other countries to the benefit of China. Just as every other country tries to their own benefit. This is the real world and it’s dirty and nasty out there beneath the surface and not a Panglossian utopia of fluffy bunnies. QFT. After the U.S. interfered with elections in Latin America, South America and elsewhere in the Cold War, it should be the last nation to ever cry about its elections having been interfered with. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-left-empowered-putin/827760/50 "2019-01-15T18:59:41Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > It seems to me, these are what Trump would do if he were trying to help Russia win an actual shooting war with the US. But that obviously isn’t Putin’s goal - his goal is to diminish the power of the US (and increase his wealth & power) without actually fighting a war. Changing the strategic balance makes Russia’s threats to nations in it’s traditional security zone carry more weight. Trump could be making it much easier for Russia to subvert and coerce to achieve its way into accomplishing its objectives than he is. Swinging that balance also allows Russia to be more aggressive when employing its armed forces as a hybrid threat like they have in Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-left-empowered-putin/827760/51 "2019-01-15T19:00:56Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > FYI, here is the 2017 thread on exactly this (dumb ass) topic: [Russian Foes of Putin to US Liberals: “STOP Making Putin Out to Be a Mastermind!!!”](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=844557) There’s a difference between saying “Putin is a genius and smarter than all of us!” and saying “Putin has malign intent.” The OP seems to be objecting to people saying the latter. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-left-empowered-putin/827760/52 "2019-01-15T19:02:53Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > QFT. After the U.S. interfered with elections in Latin America, South America and elsewhere in the Cold War, it should be the last nation to ever cry about its elections having been interfered with. Did you miss this? > [@Chronos](#): > > Yes, of course every nation of any significance tries to interfere with every other nation of any significance. That’s not the issue here. The issue here is who was trying to help other nations to interfere with our nation. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-left-empowered-putin/827760/53 "2019-01-15T19:25:17Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > QFT. After the U.S. interfered with elections in Latin America, South America and elsewhere in the Cold War, it should be the last nation to ever cry about its elections having been interfered with. Nah. It is like spies. Everyone does it but the thing is everyone gets indignant when they find one. The difference here is who it is you are fucking with. It is one thing to poke a kitten, another to poke a tiger. A superpower overtly manipulating an election of another superpower is inherently dangerous to the whole world. Not so when they mess with an election in Belize. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-left-empowered-putin/827760/54 "2019-01-15T20:28:22Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Get a clue. Of course Russia tried to interfere with the American elections to its benefit. Just as America tried and still tries to interfere with Russia, with China, with India, and everyone else to the benefit of America. Just as China tries to interfere with elections in other countries to the benefit of China. Just as every other country tries to their own benefit. This is the real world and it’s dirty and nasty out there beneath the surface and not a Panglossian utopia of fluffy bunnies. Yes, my cynical Scottish friend. The problem is that this time Kremlin succeeded in putting in the Oval Office someone who sees modern history through Kremlin’s eyes, and is adversarial toward the country he is constitutionally & by oath supposed to protect. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-left-empowered-putin/827760/55 "2019-01-15T20:44:49Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > QFT. After the U.S. interfered with elections in Latin America, South America and elsewhere in the Cold War, it should be the last nation to ever cry about its elections having been interfered with. Turnabout may be fair play, but the USA is the world’s major naval power, and it’s incredibly dangerous for it to be run by someone who sees it as a foreign enemy. Trump—a pretend international businessman, whose mother was a foreigner, whose father’s parents became American largely to escape the Great War, who has married two foreign women from non-NATO countries—is the least American American ever to serve in his present post. If he is also anti-American—and his “we’re no better than them” rhetoric implies that he is, and that the nationalist stuff is just what he expects to sell well in a country he sees as murderous imperialists—then he is going to govern like he is a foreign agent. There’s a reason the US President is supposed to be an American, with no loyalty to any foreign prince. Trump lacks loyalty to the USA, and adores Putin; he’s the wrong man for this job. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-left-empowered-putin/827760/56 "2019-01-15T22:01:11Z")
ISTM that those people who complain about the US interfering in other countries’ elections, and say that this is a Very Bad Thing are usually those on the lefter side of politics. People who complain about Russia interfering in US elections, and saying that it’s a Very Bad Thing _also_ seem to be on the lefter side of politics. This seems pretty consistent to me. We think interfering in elections is bad all the time, no matter who’s doing it and who it gets done to. So we get to complain about it all the time, no matter who’s doing it and who it gets done to. If you come across someone who thinks the US secretly muscling into the democratic process in South America or the Middle East or wherever is just fine and dandy, but that Russia doing the same to the US is terrible and wrong, by all means point out that person’s hypocrisy. I just don’t know that there are all that many of such people ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-left-empowered-putin/827760/57 "2019-01-15T22:06:36Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > QFT. After the U.S. interfered with elections in Latin America, South America and elsewhere in the Cold War, it should be the last nation to ever cry about its elections having been interfered with. Wait, what? The question isn’t “should we all have a good cry about Putin?” It’s “is Putin influencing the workings of our nation, and should we take action to stop that?” If Trump was compromised by Russian connections, do you think the appropriate response of the US government and populace is just, “Well, fair cop, we’ve been asses ourselves plenty?” ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-left-empowered-putin/827760/58 "2019-01-15T22:55:41Z")
There are those of the left, like Katrina Vanden Heuvel and Bob Scheer, who argued Putin’s corner during the invasion of Ukraine. I’m not sure what they’re saying about collusion, I stopped paying attention in disgust. I am on the left btw. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-left-empowered-putin/827760/59 "2019-01-15T23:06:55Z")
> [@typoink](#): > > Wait, what? The question isn’t “should we all have a good cry about Putin?” It’s “is Putin influencing the workings of our nation, and should we take action to stop that?” Americans aren’t going to be judging what Putin did. We’re going to be judging what Trump did. Trying to make this about Putin and what he did right or wrong means Trump supporters are approaching their last lines of defense. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-left-empowered-putin/827760/60 "2019-01-15T23:12:05Z")
> [@TSBG](#): > > There are those of the left, like Katrina Vanden Heuvel and Bob Scheer, who argued Putin’s corner during the invasion of Ukraine. Don’t think so, chief. Not unless “let’s do sanctions instead of war” is what you’re talking about, which is a totally reasonable way to approach a superpower. Sanctions which, by the way, Trump is trying to undo. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-left-empowered-putin/827760.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-left-empowered-putin/827760.md?page=4)