# Has the poor quality of the last few SW movies reduced the fan base significantly? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 25, 2004, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-poor-quality-of-the-last-few-sw-movies-reduced-the-fan-base-significantly/256743 "2004-07-25T00:25:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-poor-quality-of-the-last-few-sw-movies-reduced-the-fan-base-significantly/256743/41 "2004-07-26T14:47:16Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#): > > I pretty much lost it when “The Force” turned out to be a disease. > > Watching the master Jedi dismissing the Force as an unsuitable venue for a duel in favor of light sabers was just more of the same. A real Jedi Master would have just demonstrated to the servant of the dark side that the source of our power maintains its character, even for a master. > > “The power of the Dark Side you wield, and serve it, you must. Fear you wield, and believe it to be power, you do. But hope is my ally, and over me, fear has no power. Where light is, can darkness be? Go.” > > Tris That was a deliberate rip-off of I John, wasn’t it? 😃 To the whole thread- we probably all agree that if SW had started with TPM, the StarWarsiverse would probably have progressed no further. But thankfully, we got the original trilogy before Lucas’s sad attempt to relive his glory days- and I do think AotC was much better than TPM & I do hope RotS will be outdo that. And I’m happy we’ll now have two more Chris Lee movies. I’ll admit that if Chris had been in TPM, I’d have liked that better also. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-poor-quality-of-the-last-few-sw-movies-reduced-the-fan-base-significantly/256743/42 "2004-07-26T15:14:37Z")
Reduced fan base or not, I rather doubt George is going to have trouble paying the mortgage. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-poor-quality-of-the-last-few-sw-movies-reduced-the-fan-base-significantly/256743/43 "2004-07-26T15:33:16Z")
I have a similar POV to many previous posters: Saw 4 when I was twelve and freaked out, saw ESB and RotJ on their opening days and loved them (ewoks aside - I should’ve seen them as the beginning of the end…) Was hugely disappointed with the re-edited versions - Greedo shoots first is the SW equivalent phrase for “jumping the shark.” Also hugely disappointed in 1 and 2. Why? Well, basically, they’re just dumb - pure and simple. With all the richness and complexity coming from the first 3 movies and the world the brought us into, and the new CG effects available to Lucas this time around, I would’ve thought they would be excellent. Silly plots, poor, distracting acting (Natalie Portman, who I love, has been coached to give this flat, humorless, lower-my-voice kind of delivery - yuck! And don’t get me started on either actor who has played “Ani”). Lucas seems to be consciously targeting an audience of kids and has little in the movies that might appeal to teens or adults. I will rent 3 when it comes available, just for closure. I may see it in the theatre but only because my 6 year old would want to go…but he wants to see Thunderbirds: The Movie, so that is not a huge vote of quality… ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-poor-quality-of-the-last-few-sw-movies-reduced-the-fan-base-significantly/256743/44 "2004-07-26T16:53:30Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Oh, a data point I should have mentioned: “Clones” was the first SW movie that wasn’t the #1 film at the [box office for the year](http://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/chart/?yr=2002&p=.htm). Finished #3 behind two similar-ish genre films, and a full $100M behind the leader. Still made an obscene (and I mean it!) amount of money, but not the box office blaster of previous films. I remember being quite stunned when they did the AotC commercials that were parodies of the Spider-Man ads. Star Wars actually playing catch-up with another franchise … never thought I’d see the day. (Well, actually I did think I’d see the day—I just assumed Lucas would be chasing Lord of the Rings.) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-poor-quality-of-the-last-few-sw-movies-reduced-the-fan-base-significantly/256743/45 "2004-07-26T17:07:35Z")
When I first heard Lucas was planning on prequels I thought it was a mistake. Darth Vader, mysterious villain = really good and menacing. Darth Vader, whiny teenager = really silly. And, unfortunately, now I think of the teenager when I see the “real” Vader, which is a huge blow to my enjoyment of the first three movies. The idea that an adult woman is supposed to find Anakin irrestistible = howlingly funny. Seriously, is Lucas twelve? His Anakin/Padme love affair reads like the fantasy of some socially inept twelve year old boy dreaming about his teacher. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-poor-quality-of-the-last-few-sw-movies-reduced-the-fan-base-significantly/256743/46 "2004-07-26T17:31:28Z")
Has the poor quality of the first few SW movies hurt the fan base? 😉 I wonder about these people who think the first three were good movie making? I mean it was a hokey, not very original story, with bad acting (Hello Mr. Hammill) and some fun special effects thrown in. Not that it wasn’t fun, I’m not saying that. I love Star Wars, but I realize the reason isn’t because it was good moviemaking, but rather that it was so cool. Light sabers and the force are just awesome concepts. IMO, AotC was no worse than RotJ and just a notch below ANH. TPM, though, was crap, because the entire movie was exposition, but you can hardly get away from that. If anything, I compare the original trilogy to ‘The Mummy’ trillogy of today. Not great movie making at all, but just cool and thus fun to watch over and over again. May the Force be With You :). ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-poor-quality-of-the-last-few-sw-movies-reduced-the-fan-base-significantly/256743/47 "2004-07-26T17:33:45Z")
Not to intrude on a thread that’s having such a good time hatin’, but I couldn’t let this pass: > [@Miller](#): > > Likewise. Far and away the worst mainstream, big-budget movie I’ve ever seen. All of the following mainstream movies had budgets comperable to _Attack of the Clones_: _Armageddeon Van Helsing Alien: Ressurection Independace Day Godzilla_ (1998) _Pearl Harbor Bad Boys II Battlefield Earth Planet of the Apes_ (2001) _How the Grinch Stole Chirstmas_ (2000) _Mission Impossible II Twister Batman Forever Batman and Robin Hook The Adventures of Pluto Nash Catwoman Rollerball The Cat in the Hat The Avengers Highlander II: The Quickening Ballistic: Eecks vs. Sever_ ---
**Author:** ![Balduran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cc9497/32.png) [@Balduran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balduran)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-poor-quality-of-the-last-few-sw-movies-reduced-the-fan-base-significantly/256743/48 "2004-07-26T18:41:56Z")
For many of us in that magic age group that saw the originals in the theaters. SW was more than a movie, it was a phenomenon. Something no other generation will have the same feeling about, although others may enjoy it and become fans. Kind of like if you were a teenager during the time of the Beatles. Pretty much everything about the first two movies was awesome. Even the “making of” documentaries. It seems like every “making of” documentary nowadays just shows a couple of computer geeks talking about how they add more characters to a battle scene or show some dude in a uni-tard covered with dots jumping around. I especially like the making of ESB. Like others, I’m still a fan of the original trilogy and will see the new episode for closure. Question, did Lucas always intend TPM and AoTC to be for children or did he just say this after he found out how much people thought they sucked? Because personally, it would have been nice if he had intended them for the older fans, who have given him so much over the years. ---
**Author:** ![Soapbox\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Soapbox\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soapbox_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-poor-quality-of-the-last-few-sw-movies-reduced-the-fan-base-significantly/256743/49 "2004-07-26T18:51:37Z")
> [@Balduran](#): > > Question, did Lucas always intend TPM and AoTC to be for children or did he just say this after he found out how much people thought they sucked? Because personally, it would have been nice if he had intended them for the older fans, who have given him so much over the years. Maybe he isn’t aware of how many of you think the prequels suck. I mean, sure he has seen a lot of bad remarks and reviews for the movies, but think about it. The prequels are making just as much money as the old trilogy, so Lucas must be thinking “Well, at least the original fanbase still likes it.” How is he supposed to get the message when even those who hated Episodes 1 and 2 saw them in theaters, sometimes more than once? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-poor-quality-of-the-last-few-sw-movies-reduced-the-fan-base-significantly/256743/50 "2004-07-26T19:05:36Z")
I love the original trilogy. I saw them all at an impressionable age. But re-watch them, without letting yourself remember your childhood impressions. The acting is mostly wooden, the plot is simplisitic, the dialogue is comic-book, the whole feel of the movies is almost campy. The original movies, IMHO, had two things in that worked: they capture the imagination, and there was real group-chemistry among the core characters. As for the prequels? They still suffer from the same wooden, comic-book simpleness. That doesn’t bother me at all. But _Phantom_ fails on both imagination and character chemistry. I just couldn’t get into it, and the characters didn’t really “fit” together. _Clones_ does much better on both. Not nearly as well as the originals, but there seemed to be some chemistry there. So count me as a long-time fan who was a little disappointed, yet still satisfied with prequels. ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-poor-quality-of-the-last-few-sw-movies-reduced-the-fan-base-significantly/256743/51 "2004-07-26T19:59:51Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > As for the prequels? They still suffer from the same wooden, comic-book simpleness. That doesn’t bother me at all. But _Phantom_ fails on both imagination and character chemistry. I just couldn’t get into it, and the characters didn’t really “fit” together. _Clones_ does much better on both. Not nearly as well as the originals, but there seemed to be some chemistry there. I agree 100%, though I am less satisfied by the prequels than you are. The banter between the OT characters always struck me as genuine. I believed the love story between Leia and Han, as opposed to the clunky romance that dominated AotC. This was the least plausible love story I’ve ever seen, and the overall storyline was dominated by characters for whom we had no connection, no sympathy. See the LotR trilogy as a modern example of an ensemble cast that actually seemed to enjoy what they were doing and seemed to share in the director’s vision. I always thought it was a mistake to go for ‘kid Vader’. However, if they had gone for Anakin as a serious young man, dutiful, but finally maneuvered into a place where his duty drove him to monstrous acts, it might have worked. The sulky, adrenaline addict padawan was ridiculous, and the idea that someone, much less Natalie Portman, would fall for him, is just silly. Though I’m a huge fan of explosions, swordfights, etc, I can really dig a good love story when it is presented. Lucas took up a good amount of these films with the love story between Anakin and Amidala, and it just didn’t work. Anyway, lifelong SW fan, HUGE EU reader, and will still see SW: ROTS for the sake of my kids, but more out of a sense of ‘seeing it through’ than actual excitement. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-poor-quality-of-the-last-few-sw-movies-reduced-the-fan-base-significantly/256743/52 "2004-07-26T20:08:54Z")
> [@Stonebow](#): > > if they had gone for Anakin as a serious young man, dutiful, but finally maneuvered into a place where his duty drove him to monstrous acts While I’m inclined to agree, I don’t think a serious, dutiful Anakin would have worked for the story. I mean the Dark Side feeds on emotion. A dutiful Jedi, even one who did monstrous acts because he was DOING HIS DUTY, I don’t think would make him turn. The Jedi would have to feel pride and arrogance in performing his actions. An emotional padawan is more easily turned to the Dark Side. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-poor-quality-of-the-last-few-sw-movies-reduced-the-fan-base-significantly/256743/53 "2004-07-26T20:15:04Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Just curious if anyone was a big fan of the Star Wars universe, but has given up on it due the last few Lucas movies? I think it is more that the W :eek: W ! ! factor us gone. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-poor-quality-of-the-last-few-sw-movies-reduced-the-fan-base-significantly/256743/54 "2004-07-26T20:15:38Z")
[off-topic, but only slightly]I use Mozilla with tabs, and the title of this tab is “Straight Dope Message Board - Has the poo.” If seems Mozilla shares my opinion of the prequels![/ot] ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-poor-quality-of-the-last-few-sw-movies-reduced-the-fan-base-significantly/256743/55 "2004-07-26T20:32:28Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > While I’m inclined to agree, I don’t think a serious, dutiful Anakin would have worked for the story. I mean the Dark Side feeds on emotion. A dutiful Jedi, even one who did monstrous acts because he was DOING HIS DUTY, I don’t think would make him turn. The Jedi would have to feel pride and arrogance in performing his actions. An emotional padawan is more easily turned to the Dark Side. True, but I think it would have been more impressive to have a ‘good’ character that breaks in spectacular fashion than someone who, from his opening scene, screams ‘i’m a creepy guy!’ at the audience. The teenage Anakin, especially interacting with Amidala, is just creepy in a stalker-ish way. I don’t feel invested in him, nor does it seem a stretch to me that he’d go bad. Like I said- dutiful, serious young man- whether driven to do something evil in the course of his duty, or else failing at it and breaking under the strain…allows for a perfect opportunity for DS/Palp to seduce him to the Dark Side. possible scenarios: -Anakin knows mom is in danger, instead has to go save faceless alien victims…discovers he could have saved her if he’d gone with his feelings. -Anakin is sent to rescue a a planet of beings, either fails or else inadvertently contributes to their deaths. -Anakin kills another Jedi in the heat of the moment, convinced that what he did was just, but really just a cover for his anger. Any of these allow for DS to turn him against all of the Jedi. These are just my thoughts on it. I’m certainly not the most imaginative person, but I’ve read enough fantasy/epics to know how to do a ‘fallen hero’ well. To do it right, the hero has to seem heroic first. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-poor-quality-of-the-last-few-sw-movies-reduced-the-fan-base-significantly/256743/56 "2004-07-26T21:56:17Z")
> [@vibrotronica](#): > > Not to intrude on a thread that’s having such a good time hatin’, but I couldn’t let this pass: > > > [@Miller](#): > > > > Likewise. Far and away the worst mainstream, big-budget movie I’ve ever seen. > > All of the following mainstream movies had budgets comperable to _Attack of the Clones_: Note the clause in my quote, “that I’ve seen.” I’ve only seen half of the movies you’ve listed. Of those: _Van Helsing_: Not a good movie, but not painful to watch. Better than AotC. _Alien: Ressurection_: The first half was actually kinda good, although it turned terminally stupid before the end. Better than AotC. _Independace Day_: Sucked, but in a fairly non-offensive way. Better than AotC. _Godzilla_: A godawful abortion. Still better than AotC. _Planet of the Apes_: Stupid plot, but any Tim Burton movie is worth watching just for the visual style. Better than AotC. _Mission Impossible II_: That’s a close one, but I think it still edges out AotC. _Twister_: Not a good movie, by any measure, but an enjoyable waste of two hours. Better than AotC. _Batman Forever_: Really, really bad. Still better than AotC. _Hook_: I actually like this movie. Much better than AotC. _The Avengers_: Okay, you might have me on that one. _Highlander II: The Quickening_: All the Highlander movies have sucked. None have sucked as hard as AotC. ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-poor-quality-of-the-last-few-sw-movies-reduced-the-fan-base-significantly/256743/57 "2004-07-26T22:32:04Z")
::sheepishly raises hand:: Well, what can I say - I actually liked Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones. I’ve seen the original Star Wars several hundred times, the next two a few hundred times. I was the perfect age for them and I saw them in an empty theater over and over again after hours. (My parents owned a single-screen movie theater). I guess I’m critic-proof when it comes to the prequels. I know most people didn’t like them; hell, I know _I_ shouldn’t like them based on my taste in movies, but I can’t help it. I have both DVDs and the only scene in either of them that I skip past are the douche commercial scenes. It seems like someone making the DVD was aware of this, b/c you can do a chapter skip to get to all the Kamino scenes cleanly. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-poor-quality-of-the-last-few-sw-movies-reduced-the-fan-base-significantly/256743/58 "2004-07-27T03:40:32Z")
I like episodes 1 and 2 better than the orginal trilogy. But given I really, really, **really** hate those three movies, it’d be hard not to like them better. With the newer movies (though I’ve only managed to sit through them each once) I don’t wish to temporarily go blind and deaf, so it’s a marked improvement. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-poor-quality-of-the-last-few-sw-movies-reduced-the-fan-base-significantly/256743/59 "2004-07-27T12:18:43Z")
> [@Dooku](#): > > ::sheepishly raises hand:: > > Well, what can I say - I actually liked Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones. I’ve seen the original Star Wars several hundred times, the next two a few hundred times. I was the perfect age for them and I saw them in an empty theater over and over again after hours. (My parents owned a single-screen movie theater). I guess I’m critic-proof when it comes to the prequels. I know most people didn’t like them; hell, I know _I_ shouldn’t like them based on my taste in movies, but I can’t help it. > > I have both DVDs and the only scene in either of them that I skip past are the douche commercial scenes. It seems like someone making the DVD was aware of this, b/c you can do a chapter skip to get to all the Kamino scenes cleanly. No need to be sheepish. This group has aberrent tastes. Most folks liked 1 and 2. I liked them. The fanboys and such you find online tend to hate them, but I suspect it’s because they aren’t the religious experience they’d like the movies to be. They’re just VERY GOOD movies, not life-transforming events, and so they hate them. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-poor-quality-of-the-last-few-sw-movies-reduced-the-fan-base-significantly/256743/60 "2004-07-27T12:30:06Z")
Two questions, **EC** : 1. Why did Ep2 make only 71% of the gross of Ep1? 2. Why does the Straight Dope Message Board contain, in your mind, a disproportionate amount of Prequal-haters? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-poor-quality-of-the-last-few-sw-movies-reduced-the-fan-base-significantly/256743.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-poor-quality-of-the-last-few-sw-movies-reduced-the-fan-base-significantly/256743.md?page=4)