Has the recession created a "lost generation" of permanently unemployed?

Great Debates
41

Not true. Someone is buying our $14 billion worth of exports, and that someone includes China. In particular, China is the largest market in the world for Buick. Buick sells more vehicles in China than it does in the U.S. For example, in 2007, General Motors sold over 330,000 Buicks in China, more than twice what they sold in the United States. Were it not for China, GM would likely have shut down the brand.

It’s difficult to sell American-made cars in Japan, because until recently American-made cars were too large, too fuel-inefficient, and generally had poor quality control. Japanese-built cars also had poor quality control before they took steps starting in the 1970s to greatly improve quality. Back in the immediate post-war era, “Made in Japan” meant cheap crap. Not so today.

The reason why it’s difficult to sell American-made televisions anywhere is because we don’t make them or many other electronics anymore, because American labor costs made them too expensive. The same thing is actually happening now in Japan as wages have risen, which is why electronics factories have moved to Korea and China.

Good–Africa could use some jobs.

What all of you protectionists fail to see is that economic prosperity is not a zero-sum game. Just because a developing country improves its economy does not necessarily mean that our economy will go downhill. Indeed, it’s a good thing for living standards across the world to increase. As living standards improve, birth rates tend to decrease, and you have less pressure for those immigrants Susanann seems to despise to leave their countries in the first place. As living standards increase, people have the means to purchase our products. As living standards increase, countries have the means to clean up the environment. Finally, as living standards increase, countries tend to get less repressive and more free.

42

You COULD apply tariffs to the offshored product to keep the U.S. built product competitive, but then you’d have two items on the shelf for $1000 that you could buy in Canada for $100.

43

And how’d that work out for him? It seems you could only do that for so long.

The global economy is the ultimate macroeconomy - so macro it can afford not to give a shit about entire societies. In that context, any action or decision that tries to address the damage done to societies is frivolous, because whatever you do, the economy always wins.

44

Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on your view, MOST every day consumer things that people and families buy have NOT declined 90% in their prices over the past 10 years. The American cost of living with “free trade” policies has NOT seen a 90% reduction.

The real goal of outsourcing and the real goal of “free trade” is NOT, and has NEVER been, to lower consumer prices, but rather: to maximize profits.

For example, Nike shoes are now being made very cheaply in Vietnam because of low cost low wage “free trade” labor, but the consumer prices of Nike shoes have not correspondingly gone down 90%.

But then, the American voter/worker is now getting **EXACTLY!!! **what he voted for when he voted for “free trade” candidates for the past 30 years.

( Ancient Chinese curse: “May you get what you wish for” )

45

Keep in mind, that there are legal limits as to how many jobs a company can keep in the USA.

The “minimum wage” law is actually the outlawing and elimination of low wage jobs.

The “minimum wage” laws effectively prohibit by law low wage jobs in America. It is against the law for a company to provide a job in the United States that pays less than minimum wage.

If the “free trade” global wage is less than the federal minimum wage, then those jobs are permanently outsourced to foreign country and those Americans who formerly worked those jobs are permanently unemployed.

While most voters seem to think it is a “good” thing to outlaw/prohibit low wage jobs, in the final analysis those jobs are permanently gone from the United States.

46

I think you are trying to make an implication that tariffs do not work.

Not so.

The fact of the matter, is that the United States had tariffs set up by our founding fathers to protect our jobs and our factories and from 1775 up thru the 1960’s, 200 years!!!, the United States, the American companies, the American workers, the American consumers, did pretty well economically…if I do say so myself.

I can remember the 1960’s, and things were “good” for the American workers with a tariff system. Plenty of good high paying jobs, great profits for American companies, a strong dollar low debt and a favorable balance-of-trade, and the best made products in the world with the “MADE IN USA” label that was the envy of the world.

(…and dont give me that “it is different this time” schmele. The only thing different this time, is that “free trade” policies are eliminating American industry and eliminating American jobs and causing structural permanent unemployment)

47

tap tap tap Susanann, the 19th century is calling, and the Neo-Luddites want to know if you’ve paid your dues for the month.

An entire lost generation? No. A lot of folks who won’t be able to get back their old job or continue to do what they were doing at the wage they were getting before? Yeah, there probably are a lot of such folks, especially in the construction and contracting industries. By the time things start to really pick back up it will certainly be several year, if not a decade, and if you were in your 40’s or 50’s when the housing bubble burst then you might be too old to take up your former job…especially if you just wait around for things to recover.

And it may never do so. At some point in history, sailors on ships hunting whales for oil took a nose dive and never recovered either. An entire ‘lost generation’ there. Same for switch board operators and (wait for it) buggy whip manufacturers and sales people. :stuck_out_tongue:

Luckily, unlike during the Depression, there actually ARE jobs that this latter day ‘lost generation’ COULD move into, if they are motivated to do so. They just won’t be doing the same things there were doing before. And they may not get paid what they were getting paid in the past, or have the same benefits (or both).

The thing is, American’s seem to think that they have some kind of right to not only a job, but the the job they always worked, with ever increasing salary AND benefits, while products should naturally cost less and less every year, and that this trend is the natural course of events (until the greedy ‘capitalists’ with their perverted and conspiratorial ‘free trade’ get into the game and screw over the little man, lighting their fine Cuban cigars on the backs of the good workers and peasants, etc etc). It just doesn’t work that way in the real world.

Rhetorical question, but…how did that work out for him? :stuck_out_tongue:

-XT

48

He got canned, and more jobs went overseas.

49

No, but wages are just part of most peoples COGS - for our industry it was a pretty significant part even ten years ago and now is much less due MOSTLY to automation - but also offshoring. We manufacture about 4x as many units, with less than half the direct labor. However, our fuel costs skyrocketed and some of our materials have gone up significantly.

50

There are other things that are different - ease in transportation is a huge one. You can now put tons of product on a cargo ship and move it around the world fairly risk free. That capability really didn’t exist pre-WWII. And post WWII most of the industrialized world had been bombed to pieces, meaning we were easily able to be a manufacturing powerhouse. Information also moves easier, I can have a video meeting with my team - and while I don’t do manufacturing - our manufacturing teams fix problems overseas from the U.S. via video conference. We can also move gigabytes of data easily and relatively cheaply from place to place - no more faxing reports (common even ten years ago).

51

YOu are VERY!!! confused, and mistaking the obsoleting of previous manufactured products that were replaced by other new products…with… the permanent structural unemployment that we have today.

The United States under the tariff system previously has never lost jobs because of technological change, in fact, MORE jobs were created by the invention of cars, computers, and the oil industry. If you dont believe me, check for yourself to see how many people were previously employed at buggy whip companies, and how many MORE!!! people moved to jobs in the automotive industry in the early 1900’s.

Under the tariff system in previous times, when American job was lost in an obsolete product, each job was replaced by 1000 times as many American jobs producing the new replacing products.

Furthermore, we are not even talking about jobs being lost because of obsolete buggy whips, or whale oil, or telephone switchboards.

The United States, today, is NOT!!! losing jobs because products are going obsolete, we are not losing jobs because toys, computers, televisions, cars, tools, clothes, shoes, appliances, sporting goods, light bulbs, etc are no longer wanted and have become obsolete.

Unlike your totally irrelevant example of “buggy whips”, American consumers still want to buy toys, computers, televisions, cars, tools, clothes, shoes, appliances, sporting goods, light bulbs, etc .

The United States is permanently losing jobs because factories and jobs are being moved to other countries because since the 1970’s for the first time in our American history we no longer have our tariffs to protect our jobs and our factories.

(…and BTW…those American workers that previously worked at buggy whip shops got 1,000’s of replacement better higher-paying jobs at American car companies )

52

You just dont understand at all.

Those 330,000 Buicks that are sold in China, were not physically made in the good ole USA by American workers.

“Free trade” allows GM to hire lots of Chinese workers to make lots of cars in China.

53

And the Toyota cars made in Kentucky, the Nissans in Tennessee, the Hondas in Ohio are made by who?

54

  1. Welfare

  2. Food stamps.

  3. Free medical care.

  4. SSI (Social security)

  5. Free education

  6. ADC payments esp if they have children born here.

  7. More rewarding criminal activity opportunities with less punishment if caught

  8. No/low taxes on cash wages

  9. They are moving from an overcrowded dirty poor place to come here, but in the final analysis after hundreds of millions of them come here, then “here” will be just as bad as “there”.

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Regardless, it doesnt matter “why” they come there.

Please stay on the OP subject.

The point is, that we already do not currently have enough jobs for American citizens and we just dont need millions more foreign immigrant people moving here each and every year adding to the problem.

55

Virtually none of those cars are exported to other countries.

YOu make a very good point that of the few remaining American “made” (i.e. assembled) products, none of them are exported.

Moreover, most of the parts, components, wiring, computers, light bulbs, and the steel are foreign made. Assembling of foreign made parts does not help domestic employment very much.

Buying a Mexican or chinese manufactured wooden desk from Walmart that you have to put together yourself does not help much either. If you want to pretend that your Walmart desk is “American made” just because you assembled it then you are just kidding yourself.

56

Right, the services you just said the country won’t be able to provide.

Then don’t make ridiculous claims and back them up with flimsy cites. I agree it’s not the central issue, but if that’s the case there was no point in bringing it up.

57

  1. Not true. Only a very few countries were bombed in WW2, not the whole rest of the world. At most, only 2 countries had any significant damage to its industry - Japan and Germany. Most of the world did not have any damage at all to its industry. Even England had most of its manufacturing intact.

  2. The United States was a manufacturing powerhouse BEFORE WW2.

  3. Prior to WW2, foreign trade, and foreign made products were an EXTREMELY!!! small part of the United States economy.

  4. Most significantly, the point is, the “post WW2 period”, was of VERY short duration, just a few years. Pretty insignificant compared to the long 200 year time period of the American tariff system. For 200 years tariffs resulted in high wages, high employment, high profits, a strong dollar, and the strongest country in the world.

58

Take a look at the USA exports to various countries.

Who made those exports? Little green men? Santa’s elves? 100% pure automated robots with no human intervention?

We have ~90% of 300 million USA citizens employed and working. What do they all do? Do all of them work either work in restaurants or shuffle papers back and forth at Wall Street?

59

Wow. An unbroken 200 year period of prosperity. Amazing.:rolleyes:

Unfortunately your 200 Golden Years were broken in 1929 by the Great Depression. The United States enacted the Smoot–Hawley Tariff Act in order to “protect American jobs and industry”. It had the effect of creating a trade war which served only to increase consumer prices and exacerbate the Depression.

There were other disasterous tarriffs as well. In fact, here’s the Wiki link to the history of tarriffs in the US. Read for yourself.

The only people who support tarriffs are short sighted, narrowly focused individuals who believe that it will provide them some localized advantage.

60
  1. In the future, we wont be able to afford welfare for a billion people. Right now is when we are giving it, and right now is when foreigner are entering our country.
  2. Overpopulation of the United States IS!!! a central part of the topic of unemployment, and a cause of unemployment. We added almost 100 million more immigrants since 1970. We are adding millions more each year. Adding millions more to our population, in itself, significantly adds to total unemployment.

What is irrelevant is “why” so many millions are coming here each year.
It doesnt matter “why” we are overpopulating. No matter “Why” we are overpopulating the result is that we are still going to have additional millions of people without jobs because of the immigration.