# Has the Star Trek been "Lucas'ed" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 1, 2013, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-star-trek-been-lucased/645744 "2013-01-01T11:19:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-star-trek-been-lucased/645744/41 "2013-01-02T20:58:16Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Is that what you think happened with Klingons? I acknowledge that your law exists, and maybe we should blame it on wrestling but I don’t see with Klingons. > > Obviously, we got a more nuanced and respectable view of them in TNG and later, but it seems to me the cause was that they were based on Russians, the US view of which also changed in the 1980’s and beyond. They may have started out as “Russians,” but (from what I understand) Roddenberry came to associate them more with the Japanese as time went by. I heard him in an interview back in the '80s (I think it was with Tom Snyder), and he said about as much; he had guilt feelings about having served as a bomber pilot in the Pacific during WWII and regretted that we had had to fight Japan at all. He was a great admirer of things Japanese (he and Majel were married in Japan in a Shinto ceremony), which explains the Klingons morphing into pseudo-Samurais. The Romulans, I think, didn’t fare much better; they started going downhill as villains as far back as “The Enterprise Incident.” They were established in the first season as having a culture similar to Ancient Rome’s, and that should have been played up a lot more. (In the original concept, _they_ were the noble warriors, and Klingons were basically Mongol hordes.) Introducing the “alternate timeline” Tasha Yar and her Romulan offspring was just-plain-stupid. And the way the Remans were depicted on film … sheeeeesh! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-star-trek-been-lucased/645744/42 "2013-01-02T20:59:23Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > Do all the Klingons have ribbed foreheads? No, just the ones that are ribbed for your pleasure. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-star-trek-been-lucased/645744/43 "2013-01-02T21:02:05Z")
There’s also a place for a corollary of the Law that applies to frumpy members of a television show cast. Rhoda comes to mind as the ur-example; the fat, frumpy yenta that popped in on cute Mary was positively glammed out by the time she spun off to her own show. Abby in L.A. Law went the same route: from frumpy paralegal mouse to beauty queen by series end. I guess it has to to with continual pressure from agents, mounting contract rates for continuing characters, etc. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-star-trek-been-lucased/645744/44 "2013-01-02T21:04:28Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > There’s always an in-continuity reason for the change. The Law works outside of that. For Klingons it happened between the original series and next-gen. There was no particular requirement that ST:TNG had to have a Klingon in the main cast. But after the original series, Klingons were cool. The producers of TNG would want a cool, popular character in their show. It’s easier to capitalize on existing coolness than try to create it from scratch. Then they just needed a reason to have a Klingon around all the time. In Justman’s account, Roddenberry was initially opposed to having the Klingons in TNG _at all_, as he wanted to avoid retreads. Bob was the one who persuaded him otherwise by proposing they have a “Klingon marine” on the bridge as a security officer. Roddenberry liked the idea (a) because it was new and different, and (b) it showed that the Federation and the Empire would eventually reconcile their differences. (Remember, TNG went into production just as the Cold War was winding down.) ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-star-trek-been-lucased/645744/45 "2013-01-02T21:04:41Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > They may have started out as “Russians,” but (from what I understand) Roddenberry came to associate them more with the Japanese as time went by. Really? I always assumed Vulcans and Romulans were Chinese and Japanese - in TOS, they are related, and the mastery of emotion fits east Asian stereotypes well. Also, The Vulcan language structure is a clear ripoff of Japanese. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-star-trek-been-lucased/645744/46 "2013-01-02T21:09:20Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > By the end of _Voyager_, miss badass Borg was running around in a silver catsuit. You say that as though it’s a bad thing… :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-star-trek-been-lucased/645744/47 "2013-01-02T21:14:56Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Really? I always assumed Vulcans and Romulans were Chinese and Japanese - in TOS, they are related, and the mastery of emotion fits east Asian stereotypes well. _Klingons_ (who were, BTW, created by Gene Coon, not Roddenberry) were originally Communist-type baddies, with heavy Mongol overtones. Vulcans and Romulans do indeed come from the same stock, but it was established in “Balance of Terror” (first season) that the latter have a Roman-type culture. As for the Vulcans, it was pretty clear that their culture was indeed similar to Earth’s East Asian culture(s). About the language, I can’t comment, as I’ve never tried to learn it (or Klingon, for that matter). ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-star-trek-been-lucased/645744/48 "2013-01-03T14:47:23Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > An example of Robot Arm’s Law of the Emasculated Sci-Fi Badass. There is no canonical statement of this law, yet, but to summarize, sci-fi movies and television create great villains, who then become popular, and are then turned into heroes in the sequel (or even the same movie) to cash in on their popularity. Examples include: > > Klingons > Darth Vader > the shark in _Jaws_ > HAL-9000 > the T. Rex in _Jurassic Park_ > the Terminator > > and probably more. I keep meaning to start a thread to get a more complete list. I must have missed it, but when did **the shark in Jaws** turn into a good guy/hero? Was it in Jaws 3D? Cause that’s the only one I never saw. > [@bup](#): > > “the” Star Trek? > > The only enhancements I’ve noticed that annoyed me are in the episode Doomsday Machine. > > They fixed a lot of stuff - fixing the relative sizes of star ships, shuttlecraft, and the “planet killer”, but the planet killer still looks like a spray painted Bugle corn chip. > > That would even be fine, but with the doomsday device looking like ass they \*added \*FX footage, and removed on-ship dialog to make the episode still fit the time constraint! > > They removed Decker and Spock’s “Vulcans never bluff.” “No, I don’t suppose that they do…” scene! The power struggle and military politics are what make the episode! It’s not the stupid first-grade cornucopia Thanksgiving project with no visible propulsion or navigation mechanism. I’m pretty sure they only cut that dialog for the broadcasts, the Blu-rays have all those scenes intact (as does Netflix). The CBS Digital people discussed making the planet killer look more fearsome, as the writer of the original episode had wanted it to be bristling with weapons. But like all the other scenes they felt they couldn’t go that far. I agree. I still find the rough simplicity of it somewhat scary, like it’s almost alive or something. I always remember when I first saw this episode my mom pointed out how Decker fidgeting with the two data carts during that scene was a reference to Humphrey Bogart in the final courtroom scene of _The Caine Mutiny_… ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-star-trek-been-lucased/645744/49 "2013-01-06T01:12:29Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Really? I always assumed Vulcans and Romulans were Chinese and Japanese I thought they were supposed to be the ancient Greeks and Romans (in SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE) respectively. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-star-trek-been-lucased/645744/50 "2013-01-06T02:51:44Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > I thought they were supposed to be the ancient Greeks and Romans (in SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE) respectively. That was my understanding. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-star-trek-been-lucased/645744/51 "2013-01-06T11:41:49Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > That was my understanding. What would lead you to believe Vulcan culture was an analogue of Ancient Greek culture? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-star-trek-been-lucased/645744/52 "2013-01-06T13:24:38Z")
Because Spock’s relationship with Kirk, despite all the fan-fic, was purely Platonic. ---
**Author:** ![wedgehed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8edcca/32.png) [@wedgehed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wedgehed)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-star-trek-been-lucased/645744/53 "2013-01-06T14:09:03Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > I must have missed it, but when did **the shark in Jaws** turn into a good guy/hero? Was it in Jaws 3D? Cause that’s the only one I never saw. Maybe it was his skit work on SNL. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-star-trek-been-lucased/645744/54 "2013-01-06T15:03:34Z")
i have a question about the new BD set. In the 1980s and '90s, I managed the IMAX theater at the National Air and Space Museum, and for our annual sci-fi film series we showed some episodes of ST:TOS. We were able to get original 35mm prints from Paramount. We all marvelled at seeing the ST world in greater detail than we had previously, but apart from the cheesy optical FX, the thing I remember most breaking the spell were the fight scenes, where it was painfully obvious that stunt doubles had replaced Shatner and the other stars. The transitions sparked gales of laughter from the audience. Obviously, CBS hasn’t “fixed” that, but is it clear in HD that Bill and the others didn’t do their own stunts? ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-star-trek-been-lucased/645744/55 "2013-01-07T13:33:37Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > Is it clear in HD that Bill and the others didn’t do their own stunts? It was clear on my little B&W portable set back in 1969. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-star-trek-been-lucased/645744/56 "2013-01-07T14:54:36Z")
> [@wedgehed](#): > > Maybe it was his skit work on SNL. > > 🙂 Sketches. They’re called sketches in the trade. Skits are what your German/French/Spanish/etc. teacher makes you do in class to show you’ve learned the last few units’ material properly. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-star-trek-been-lucased/645744/57 "2013-01-07T14:57:12Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Because Spock’s relationship with Kirk, despite all the fan-fic, was purely Platonic. Surely that would be more a matter of separating the two with a crowbar, wouldn’t it? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-star-trek-been-lucased/645744/58 "2013-01-07T16:15:18Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > I must have missed it, but when did **the shark in Jaws** turn into a good guy/hero? Was it in Jaws 3D? Cause that’s the only one I never saw. I thought in 3 the shark was defending her young, or attacking property developers, or something. And in 4 it was only seeking out justified revenge on Mrs. Brody after her family had killed so many sharks in the first three movies, who were probably that shark’s cousins. In an early treatment for _Jaws 5_, the shark was running a day-care center. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-star-trek-been-lucased/645744/59 "2013-01-07T16:26:47Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Sketches. They’re called sketches in the trade. > > Skits are what your German/French/Spanish/etc. teacher makes you do in class to show you’ve learned the last few units’ material properly. > **[skit](https://www.thefreedictionary.com/skit)** > > Definition, Synonyms, Translations of skit by The Free Dictionary 1. A short, usually comic dramatic performance or work; a theatrical sketch. 2. A short humorous or satirical piece of writing. [SKIT Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/skit) 1 : a jeering or satirical remark : taunt 2 a : a satirical or humorous story or sketch b (1) : a brief burlesque or comic sketch included in a dramatic performance (as a revue) (2) : a short serious dramatic piece; especially : one done by amateurs ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-star-trek-been-lucased/645744/60 "2013-01-07T20:04:57Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > [Skit - definition of skit by The Free Dictionary](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/skit) > > 1. A short, usually comic dramatic performance or work; a theatrical sketch. > 2. A short humorous or satirical piece of writing. > [SKIT Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/skit) > 1 > : a jeering or satirical remark : taunt > 2 > a : a satirical or humorous story or sketch > b (1) : a brief burlesque or comic sketch included in a dramatic performance (as a revue) (2) : a short serious dramatic piece; especially : one done by amateurs They’re still called sketches in the trade. Lorne Michaels would cut your balls off if you referred to his SNL bits as “skits.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-star-trek-been-lucased/645744.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-star-trek-been-lucased/645744.md?page=4)