# Has the term 'Karen' become racist and sexist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 20, 2020, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253 "2020-02-20T19:38:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/61 "2020-02-21T17:12:12Z")
Of course it is racist and sexist. It is a derogative term that only applies to one race and sex. Some of the responses remind me of Robert Byrd talking about how [white](https://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/03/04/byrd.slur/)people can be n-words too. Anyone can be an entitled jerk but only someone of a certain race and sex can be a Karen. Whether or not racism and sexism is a big deal when applied to white women is a separate issue. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/62 "2020-02-21T17:15:56Z")
Again, anyone of any race or gender can be a Karen. It is the _behavior_ that makes something an example being a Karen. It is making fun of specific behaviors, not making fun of all middle aged white women. This outrage seems manufactured and frankly kind of ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/63 "2020-02-21T17:32:19Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > It’s not about middle aged white women. It’s about a specific behavior. Demanding to talk to the manager. Calling the police on someone just living their life and not harming anybody. Sticking ones nose where it doesn’t belong especially with an entitled attitude. [Dictionary.com](https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/karen/) says this: > [@](#): > > What does Karen mean? > **Karen is a mocking slang term for an entitled, obnoxious, middle-aged white woman.** Especially as featured in memes, Karen is generally stereotyped as having a blonde bob haircut, asking to speak to retail and restaurant managers to voice complaints or make demands, and being a nagging, often divorced mother from Generation X. If it’s not about middle aged white women, then we could substitute any name and it still would work. But we don’t do this substitution, because “John” or "Ebony just don’t conjure the same mental associations that “Karen” does. The “Karen” thing is much like calling anyone who cuts in front of traffic “Wang” because of the Asian bad driver stereotype. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/64 "2020-02-21T17:39:27Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Again, anyone of any race or gender can be a Karen. It is the _behavior_ that makes something an example being a Karen. It is making fun of specific behaviors, not making fun of all middle aged white women. This outrage seems manufactured and frankly kind of ridiculous. Can you find instances of black men being ridiculed for being Karens? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/65 "2020-02-21T17:48:31Z")
Middle aged concerned black man on the phone has been a meme for a very long time: [https://me.me/i/black-guy-on-the-phone-know-your-meme-f1e3055bc80642a8a0ff5aba8610550f](https://me.me/i/black-guy-on-the-phone-know-your-meme-f1e3055bc80642a8a0ff5aba8610550f) This is peak “white people are the real victims of discrimination!” in action. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/66 "2020-02-21T17:59:13Z")
It’s fine to call out white privileged behavior. It might be observed to take a certain form with middle aged white women, and I can see how it would emerge as a meme. But when it turns into a weapon, an insult, it doesn’t seem particularly valid to gender the insult. When used specifically against white female politicians, I would say that it is definitely sexist. This is a context where the people involved – politicians – are all about speaking out, but female politicians get labeled as strident, shrill, overly aggressive, trying too hard, and as “screaming about” things regularly when their male counter parts rarely get the same description. There is social pressure for outspoken women to shut up. Applying a gendered negative meme to female politicians looks like that kind of reaction/pressure to me. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/67 "2020-02-21T18:09:26Z")
I agree that sexist remarks toward female politicians are awful and wrong. Declaring that the name “Karen” is itself racist and sexist seems a huge overreach though. Also, even if it was stipulated that the word “Karen” is racist and sexist and should no longer be used in social media, how do you suggest this be controlled? Government control over everyone’s twitter and facebook? There is no solution here. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/68 "2020-02-21T18:11:48Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > Satchmo? Other than Louis Armstrong, I’ve never, ever heard this term used to describe a single soul. Louis Armstrong’s nickname was derived from “satchelmouth,” a name he was called as a kid. If anyone else has been called that, it was in reference to Armstrong. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/69 "2020-02-21T18:17:34Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I’ve never seen it used to demean someone explicitly _for_ their race, only for their privileged and entitled attitude. But it’s a demeaning epithet, and it’s only ever applied to white women, I guess that’s the argument. > > A similar kind of epithet used against a minority racial group would not be acceptable, but I think this is a case where it’s not symmetrical, and where the [prejudice+power] view of racism is applicable. To at least some extent, the stereotyped entitled attitude reflects the privileged position and attitude of white people. It makes little sense to say that you can’t call out white privilege because that’s racist against white people. Lots of stuff called ‘racist’ against non-whites is not directly _for_ their race; it’s just deemed to be constructively, indirectly etc that way to particular people. I think it basically comes down to whether one accepts the argument for a double standard laid out in the second paragraph. In general I do not. Beyond that it’s really just debating ‘my basic worldview is superior’, ‘no mine is!’. If the context is classifying a person by their race, whether white or any other race. It’s not racist to say ‘many whites have a sense of entitlement’ just as it isn’t racist to say ‘the crime rate among African Americans is higher than among whites’. Neither statement has to be accepted as true, but neither is racist whether or not accepted as true. Attaching that generality to a particular person is what is racist\* IMO. I believe this ‘meme’ (though I’d never heard of it until recently) is used that way, and is thus racist. Sexist? Hard to see how it could be argued it’s not if used basically as ‘you’re one of those typical x women’. But it’s pretty much as obviously racist IMO unless one adopts the proposed double standard, where it’s OK to say ‘you’re a typical white x’, ‘because of history’. \*in the sense of prejudice or bias; saying it’s not racist because ‘racism’ only means theories of racial superiority is ridiculous. The word’s meaning goes beyond that for almost everybody, though it has become ambiguous exactly what it means, it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/70 "2020-02-21T18:25:05Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I don’t like the “Karen” thing. Telling us will not change a thing, you really need to speak to the manager. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/71 "2020-02-21T18:31:27Z")
I’m still waiting for a single constructive suggestion of how to fix this problem, even if we all stipulate that it is a problem. We are talking about how millions of people behave on the internet. This is not something that anyone has any control over. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/72 "2020-02-21T18:43:10Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > I agree that sexist remarks toward female politicians are awful and wrong. Declaring that the name “Karen” is itself racist and sexist seems a huge overreach though. > > Also, even if it was stipulated that the word “Karen” is racist and sexist and should no longer be used in social media, how do you suggest this be controlled? Government control over everyone’s twitter and facebook? There is no solution here. I don’t think anyone is saying the NAME Karen is sexist and racist. The Karen meme is what is being discussed. Calling a person by the name Karen if that is the person’s name is not an instance of the meme. Calling a person “a Karen,” or calling a person by the name Karen when that is not their name, may be an instance of the meme. Responding to a white middle aged female politician who is talking politics with a dismissive reference to the meme is sexist. No one is remotely talking about banning anything. There are an infinite number of reactions to seeing sexism in action that are not putting the government in control of social media. Wow. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/73 "2020-02-21T18:46:59Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > I don’t think anyone is saying the NAME Karen is sexist and racist. The Karen meme is what is being discussed. Calling a person by the name Karen if that is the person’s name is not an instance of the meme. Calling a person “a Karen,” or calling a person by the name Karen when that is not their name, may be an instance of the meme. Responding to a white middle aged female politician who is talking politics with a dismissive reference to the meme is sexist. > > No one is remotely talking about banning anything. There are an infinite number of reactions to seeing sexism in action that are not putting the government in control of social media. Wow. Ok, so what do you suggest? Can you name one of these infinite reactions that will actually do anything to stop this from happening? Still waiting for any constructive suggestion. I do agree that using that meme to insult female politicians is wrong. But, so what? What can we do about it? That is the question that nobody will address. Wow indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/74 "2020-02-21T18:54:46Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > I don’t think anyone is saying the NAME Karen is sexist and racist. Look at the thread title… ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/75 "2020-02-21T18:59:55Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > I don’t think anyone is saying the NAME Karen is sexist and racist. > [@Airbeck](#): > > Look at the thread title… > [@](#): > > Has the **term** ‘Karen’ become racist and sexist? Bolding mine. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/76 "2020-02-21T19:05:14Z")
Oh for god’s sake ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/77 "2020-02-21T19:08:15Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Also, even if it was stipulated that the word “Karen” is racist and sexist and should no longer be used in social media, how do you suggest this be controlled? Government control over everyone’s twitter and facebook? There is no solution here. Are we really nitpicking between name, term, and word? This thread has jumped the shark. And I still haven’t heard one concrete suggestion for what to do even if we all agree that the TERM Karen is racist and sexist. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/78 "2020-02-21T19:11:39Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > \*in the sense of prejudice or bias; saying it’s not racist because ‘racism’ only means theories of racial superiority is ridiculous. The word’s meaning goes beyond that for almost everybody, though it has become ambiguous exactly what it means, it’s true. Very very few people really think prejudice or bias against a race is always racism (just like most people don’t call it sexism when a TV show has women getting together to complain about ‘men’). I don’t actually think the word’s meaning does go beyond prejudice + racial superiority/inferiority. It goes back to what 'ism’s are. People generally understand ‘ism’ means a world view or system. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/79 "2020-02-21T19:12:18Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Are we really nitpicking between name, term, and word? Yes! Demeaning anyone who happens to be named “Karen” is ridiculous. A 22 year old black man can be “a Karen”. > [@Airbeck](#): > > And I still haven’t heard one concrete suggestion for what to do even if we all agree that the TERM Karen is racist and sexist. Don’t use the term if you don’t like it. When I encounter “a Karen” I point and laugh. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/80 "2020-02-21T19:16:04Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Yes! Demeaning anyone who happens to be named “Karen” is ridiculous. A 22 year old black man can be “a Karen”. > Don’t use the term if you don’t like it. When I encounter “a Karen” I point and laugh. I have never used any form of the Karen meme. This thread is not about me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253.md?page=5)