# Has the term 'Karen' become racist and sexist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 20, 2020, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253 "2020-02-20T19:38:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/81 "2020-02-21T19:19:13Z")
Here are the top five names given for baby girls; one sample per decade: 1928 Betty Dorothy Helen Margaret Mary 1938 Barbara Betty Mary Patricia Shirley 1948 Barbara Linda Mary Patricia Susan 1958 Karen Linda Mary Patricia Susan 1968 Jennifer Kimberly Lisa Melissa Michelle 1978 Amy Heather Jennifer Jessica Melissa 1988 Amanda Ashley Jennifer Jessica Sarah 1998 Ashley Emily Hannah Samantha Sarah 2008 Ava Emily Emma Isabella Olivia 2018 Ava Emma Isabella Olivia Sophia Names familiar to us oldtimers — Mary, Patricia, Susan, Linda, Barbara etc. — were common before the the 60’s; Lisa (and Karen!) came into vogue during the 60’s, but then came a massive shift: The names are different nowadays, and quickly go in and out of vogue. For each year, the ordering shown is alphabetic, not popularity rank order. Here is the list for boys’ names: 1928 Charles James John Robert William 1938 James John Richard Robert William 1948 David James John Robert William 1958 David James John Michael Robert 1968 David James John Michael Robert 1978 Christopher David James Jason Michael 1988 Andrew Christopher Joshua Matthew Michael 1998 Christopher Jacob Joshua Matthew Michael 2008 Daniel Ethan Jacob Joshua Michael 2018 James Liam Noah Oliver William Among 2018 baby boys, Liam was #1, Noah #2 ! ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/82 "2020-02-21T19:20:30Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Very very few people really think prejudice or bias against a race is always racism (just like most people don’t call it sexism when a TV show has women getting together to complain about ‘men’). I don’t actually think the word’s meaning does go beyond prejudice + racial superiority/inferiority. It goes back to what 'ism’s are. People generally understand ‘ism’ means a world view or system. Furthermore, I would posit that the (IMO, silly) term “reverse racism” acknowledges that racism = prejudice + racial superiority/inferiority. Hence the ‘reverse’ part of that. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/83 "2020-02-21T19:22:20Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Since virtually no one has ever heard of this, I seriously doubt that this can be a valid concern. Just because a few old people don’t know about an internet meme doesn’t mean that it isn’t widely known among a substantial segment of the population. Or that it’s of no concern. You might as well say, “Nobody in my nursing home vapes, so why are people on television talking about it?” ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/84 "2020-02-21T19:22:43Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > I have never used any form of the Karen meme. > > This thread is not about me. Now you’re being such a Ronald! ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/85 "2020-02-21T19:22:53Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Are we really nitpicking between name, term, and word? > > This thread has jumped the shark. And I still haven’t heard one concrete suggestion for what to do even if we all agree that the TERM Karen is racist and sexist. Your failure to grasp a distinction does not mean that elucidating the matter is nitpicking. This has nothing to do with people who are named Karen. It is about the viral epithet “a Karen”, a label for certain sterotypical behaviors. Equally, any failure to see any value in discussing whether words or actions are racist or sexist is your own limitation. The first “concrete suggestion” if we were to gain insight that some term is racist or sexist is rather obviously to stop using it ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/86 "2020-02-21T19:27:08Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Your failure to grasp a distinction does not mean that elucidating the matter is nitpicking. This has nothing to do with people who are named Karen. It is about the viral epithet “a Karen”, a label for certain sterotypical behaviors. > > Equally, any failure to see any value in discussing whether words or actions are racist or sexist is your own limitation. The first “concrete suggestion” if we were to gain insight that some term is racist or sexist is rather obviously to stop using it ourselves. Failure to grasp? My own limitation? So now we’ve gotten to the insults portion of the debate? Again, I’ve never used the Karen meme, and from reading this thread, nobody else here seems to either. So problem solved then? Thread over? We in this thread are not the source of the problem. What I have yet to hear anyone suggest is anything that any of us can do to stop other people on the internet from using it. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/87 "2020-02-21T19:31:56Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Never heard the name used this way; gotta cite? Rob Dyrdek uses it often on Ridiculousness on MTV. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/88 "2020-02-21T19:41:33Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Again, I’ve never used the Karen meme, and from reading this thread, nobody else here seems to either. So problem solved then? Thread over? That’s not true. A few people have said they have seen it. I will add my voice. I definitely have seen it on Facebook and Twitter. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/89 "2020-02-21T19:43:27Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > That’s not true. A few people have said they have seen it. I will add my voice. I definitely have seen it on Facebook and Twitter. That’s not what I said in your quote of my post. I said I have never _used_ it, and I can’t recall anyone in this thread who has _used_ it. Of course I have seen it, and so have some in the thread. What I haven’t seen is any suggestion on what to be done to stop those that do use it from using it in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/90 "2020-02-21T19:48:15Z")
It’s not racist or whatever-ist, it’s a descriptive label EARNED by the target. Generic white mom walking down the street? Nobody in their right mind would think, “Ah! A Karen!” because she has not yet started Karening (For those who are unfamiliar with Karen & Becky, it might interest you to know that The Kids are doing grammatically unholy things to nouns & verbs). All Karens are white women, but not all white women are Karens, so it’s generally good manners to give her the benefit of the doubt before affixing the label. You’d hate to undercut someone only to find out later she is one of the good ones. Mom had similar theories about persons of color (which is not a term she used). ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/91 "2020-02-21T19:51:01Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Failure to grasp? My own limitation? > > So now we’ve gotten to the insults portion of the debate? > > Again, I’ve never used the Karen meme, and from reading this thread, nobody else here seems to either. So problem solved then? Thread over? > > We in this thread are not the source of the problem. What I have yet to hear anyone suggest is anything that any of us can do to stop other people on the internet from using it. As a completely random observer to this thread, allow me to sincerely and politely suggest: Take a step away from this thread. It is not doing you any good. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/92 "2020-02-21T19:56:21Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > As a completely random observer to this thread, allow me to sincerely and politely suggest: > > Take a step away from this thread. It is not doing you any good. May I politely suggest that this thread isn’t doing anyone any good? Kind of what I’ve been pointing out with asking for concrete suggestions. Of which so far we’ve seen exactly zero. My entire point is that we are talking about the internet, and there seems to be a complete lack of understanding of how the internet actually works. I did think that the entire point of this board was fighting ignorance. Has that changed? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/93 "2020-02-21T20:01:18Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > May I politely suggest that this thread isn’t doing anyone any good? Kind of what I’ve been pointing out with asking for concrete suggestions. Of which so far we’ve seen exactly zero. So is your entire thesis that because we can’t control with randos say on the internet, then there’s nothing to talk about? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/94 "2020-02-21T20:09:09Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > So is your entire thesis that because we can’t control with randos say on the internet, then there’s nothing to talk about? Basically. What good is getting upset about something that there is nothing we can do about? What has this conversation accomplished? Assholes are going to be assholes on the internet. Such has it always been, so shall it always be. We can tut tut and pat each other on the back for disapproving of what some right wingers do to insult female democratic candidates on twitter and facebook, but what can be done? This thread could go on for 100 pages, but will the internet culture we’re complaining about change at all? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/95 "2020-02-21T20:15:38Z")
nm dupe ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/96 "2020-02-21T20:22:03Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Basically. What good is getting upset about something that there is nothing we can do about? Who has said they are upset? > [@](#): > > What has this conversation accomplished? Why are you participating in this thread? > [@](#): > > This thread could go on for 100 pages, but will the internet culture we’re complaining about change at all? If this discussion causes people to reconsider their own opinions and behavior, then yes, it can cause changes to this thing you’re calling the “internet culture”. But even if didn’t, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t discuss this topic. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/97 "2020-02-21T20:30:37Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Who has said they are upset? Those who have opined that Karen is racist and sexist and demeaning to anyone named Karen and to all middle aged white women. That sentiment has been expressed more than once. If someone feels this way, then usage of Karen would be an upsetting thing for them to encounter, no? > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Why are you participating in this thread? Why does anyone participate in any thread here? I have time on my hands, and I’m pretty well versed in internet culture so I thought I had some germane information to share on the subject. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If this discussion causes people to reconsider their own opinions and behavior, then yes, it can cause changes to this thing you’re calling the “internet culture”. > > But even if didn’t, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t discuss this topic. I don’t recall anyone in this thread saying that they personally have used Karen in this way. I certainly haven’t. So I don’t see any evidence that anyone in this thread has decided to no longer use Karen in this way. Look, at this point we are in a circular conversation and the plot is being lost. The fact that there still has not been even one concrete suggestion about how to stop Karen from being used this way on the internet tells me that there likely won’t be any forthcoming, so I’ll go ahead and bow out at this point. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/98 "2020-02-21T21:38:08Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Those who have opined that Karen is racist and sexist and demeaning to anyone named Karen and to all middle aged white women. That sentiment has been expressed more than once. If someone feels this way, then usage of Karen would be an upsetting thing for them to encounter, no? I’m one of the posters that said I don’t like “Karen” because its connotations. But it’s crazy to infer from that I’m upset about anything. I’m not even in the demographic group that is being mocked with the term. I’m just providing an opinion that was solicited by the OP. > [@](#): > > Why does anyone participate in any thread here? I have time on my hands, and I’m pretty well versed in internet culture so I thought I had some germane information to share on the subject. So that’s the answer to your question about the point in talking about this. It’s not just about changing other people’s behavior; it’s about exchanging ideas. > [@](#): > > I don’t recall anyone in this thread saying that they personally have used Karen in this way. I certainly haven’t. So I don’t see any evidence that anyone in this thread has decided to no longer use Karen in this way. Do you think the only people reading this thread (and are in the position to be influenced by it) are those who have posted in it? ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/99 "2020-02-21T21:47:22Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > I agree that sexist remarks toward female politicians are awful and wrong. Declaring that the name “Karen” is itself racist and sexist seems a huge overreach though. > > Also, even if it was stipulated that the word “Karen” is racist and sexist and should no longer be used in social media, how do you suggest this be controlled? Government control over everyone’s twitter and facebook? There is no solution here. Doesn’t this complaint apply to any of the previously established racial slurs? We acknowledge the N word as racist without giving the Government control over our twitter. I’ll admit our current plan against racism isn’t perfect, but social condemnation of it is doing more than nothing. Also, whether we have a good plan against sexist slurs is orthogonal to whether a certain term is a sexist slur. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/100 "2020-02-21T21:49:29Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > I’m still waiting for a single constructive suggestion of how to fix this problem, even if we all stipulate that it is a problem. We are talking about how millions of people behave on the internet. This is not something that anyone has any control over. The talking about it _is the solution_. When I was fifteen, all my friends and I used “gay” to mean “stupid” and “fag” was how we insulted each other. Nobody passed a law making that illegal. But the discussion we had as a society, on TV, in movies, on the internet, about the use of those terms eventually lessened the problem of homophobic slang. The problem is still out there, but it’s a _lot_ less of a problem than it was in 2005. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253.md?page=6)