# Has the term 'Karen' become racist and sexist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 20, 2020, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253 "2020-02-20T19:38:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/121 "2020-02-22T17:14:01Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > And then there was Adolph “Harpo” Marx, who mysteriously turned into an Arthur somewhere around 1933. And then there was Milton “Gummo” Marx, who had fabulous skills at the pool table, notably his uncanny ability at a carom, which gave him a secondary nickname of Carom Marx. Gummo had a bad stammer - the reason he left show business early. > [@](#): > > Although the fourth Marx Brother in age, he was the first to make his debut, pretending to be a dummy in an act with his uncle Henry Shean (né Heinemann Schoenberg) the brother of Al Shean in 1899. Milton was put into a costume with a papier-mâché head and pretended to be a dummy while Henry pretended to work him. The act may have only performed once and was not helped by Shean’s deafness or Milton’s stammer. He would say the name as Car-car-car… leading his cruelly teasing brothers to ask, do you mean “Kar-en”? So he was known inside the family as Karen for the rest of his life. Quel irony. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/122 "2020-02-22T17:16:22Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Sorry if I came off as trollish, I honestly thought it was an appropriate suggestion to your statement I was responding to. I won’t try to explain my thinking, rather I’ll just withdraw my suggestion and apologize. Apology accepted! 🙂 > [@Ashtura](#): > > I just don’t think it’s cool to pick a supposedly random name and giving it a negative connotation. I don’t think it is cool either. Although it is ironic in a way. Parents are chided for giving their kids creative names because “OMG THE KIDS WILL BULLY THEM SO MUCH!!” The Karen thing really does shows that “kids” will pick on you no matter your name. There’s a woman in my building who has the [emblematic Karen haircut](https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fme.me%2Fi%2Fthe-karen-haircut-is-just-a-reverse-mullet-stop-kidding-9043724b21b74b55b58d4b11dd308375&psig=AOvVaw1eQeN-NMW2XxKDfKYGjfMT&ust=1582477558765000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCIC3t8jS5ecCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD). Her name is not Karen, but I always think “Karen” when I see her because I’m an idiot. I can’t help but think that before this Karen business, her life was a lot easier. But now she probably does have people assuming she’s a bitch and treating her accordingly (and as far as I can tell, undeservingly). Most memes are harmless. But this one, I dunno. I can’t wait for it to go away. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/123 "2020-02-22T18:11:13Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > I had a Karen-named girlfriend in college for nearly three years. She’s an African-American lady, and no doubt horrified by this turn of events. As are two of our best friends, I’m sure; both of them are lovely people. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/124 "2020-02-22T23:41:59Z")
This thread reaffirms my suspicion that I am entirely out of date, and culturally clueless, while simultaneously affirming my feeling that I am fine with that. I might be Trisking, if that was actually my name. ---
**Author:** ![Karen\_Lingel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karen_lingel/32/18649_2.png) [@Karen\_Lingel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karen_Lingel)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2020, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/125 "2020-02-23T04:59:02Z")
Well, I never! ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2020, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/126 "2020-02-23T06:32:34Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > nm dupe > > * * * > > “Sometimes I think that the surest sign of intelligent life in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.” - Calvin and Hobbes How come you cool kids get to make duplicate posts at all? Whenever I try it, I get a “This is a duplicate post” message and am refused. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2020, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/127 "2020-02-23T06:37:22Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Now, being called Felicia…that’s not a good place. 😕 I met a girl named Juleen once. Is there some sort of index, or an updated version of _“What your baby’s name means”_? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2020, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/128 "2020-02-23T08:00:36Z")
For it to be racist, it would have to have been coined to explicitly be about white people. But it wasn’t. I’ve watched its rise, and “Karen” was always just about certain negative traits, not about the color of the skin of the person who had them. It was explicitly coined about certain women. However, just because that is one criteria for it to be bigoted doesn’t mean it’s the only one. Another question is “does it disparage [disadvantaged group] in general or someone for an aspect of being part of [disadvantaged group]?” For example, the “mean girl” trope is not generally considered sexist, despite applying to women. Finally, look at who are using it. Is it the sexists and racists calling out Karens? Generally not. It’s not something used by black nationalists or anti-feminists. It’s used by feminists and social justice warriors. And they aren’t using it to say that white women (who they are) are inferior, nor does it hit on some historic way that white women have been persecuted. So I say, no, it’s not racist or sexist. I get why someone named Karen might hate it, but there’s nothing wrong with having a negative term for people who act in this manner. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2020, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/129 "2020-02-23T15:28:34Z")
The Karen meme [has jumped species](https://www.facebook.com/JokesWithJamesAndJimmy/photos/no-pets-cooking-bicycles/2552891834774760/). ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2020, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/130 "2020-02-23T16:52:05Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > 😕 I met a girl named Juleen once. Juleen, Juleen, Juleen, Juleeeeeeeen. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/131 "2020-02-24T16:43:18Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > For it to be racist, it would have to have been coined to explicitly be about white people. But it wasn’t. I’ve watched its rise, and “Karen” was always just about certain negative traits, not about the color of the skin of the person who had them. > > It was explicitly coined about certain women. However, just because that is one criteria for it to be bigoted doesn’t mean it’s the only one. Another question is “does it disparage [disadvantaged group] in general or someone for an aspect of being part of [disadvantaged group]?” For example, the “mean girl” trope is not generally considered sexist, despite applying to women. > > Finally, look at who are using it. Is it the sexists and racists calling out Karens? Generally not. It’s not something used by black nationalists or anti-feminists. It’s used by feminists and social justice warriors. And they aren’t using it to say that white women (who they are) are inferior, nor does it hit on some historic way that white women have been persecuted. > > So I say, no, it’s not racist or sexist. I get why someone named Karen might hate it, but there’s nothing wrong with having a negative term for people who act in this manner. If it is not explicitly about white people is it common to refer to Asian, Hispanics, or Black people as Karens? What about calling black women Sapphire? Is that racist or sexist, after all it describes a behavior and not explicitly skin color. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/132 "2020-02-24T17:26:44Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > If it is not explicitly about white people is it common to refer to Asian, Hispanics, or Black people as Karens? Mind you, I don’t agree with everything in BigT’s post. And I do see how Karen can be perceived as racist and sexist. But I think a good argument can be made that Karen doesn’t get thrown at black, Hispanic, and Asian women because Karen-like women aren’t heavily represented in these groups. Sure, there are viral videos of women from these groups acting quite badly. But calling the cops on innocent people? Blowing up at retail workers for minor offenses? Putting raisins in potato salad? White women are more likely to be guilty of these acts. > [@](#): > > What about calling black women Sapphire? Is that racist or sexist, after all it describes a behavior and not explicitly skin color. I don’t think Sapphire is the best analogy, since black folks neither created nor perpetuated this stereotype. I think a better analogy would be “ghetto”. It is a word used by black folks to insult other black folks who act a certain way. Is it racist? I think it can be, but there are a other -isms that could also be in play. Like, if someone writes someone off as “ghetto” based solely on their name and race, then it could be racism or classism or both driving their decision-making. I don’t know what we gain by diagnosing the specific -ism, though. Either way, a person is being judged unfairly based on superficial qualities. I can imagine a person being prejudiced against someone who fits the Karen stereotype at first blush. Depending on the person, racism or sexism or both could be at play. That said, just because I can imagine Karen prejudice doesn’t mean it actually exists in any meaningful way. Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Seanette](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/seanette/32/9139_2.png) [@Seanette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seanette)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/133 "2020-02-24T18:09:56Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yes, you’re being oversensitive. “Karen” is just a nickname for the concept. And it’s not just “white bitch” but “_entitled_ white bitch.” In my own customer service experience, and as an observer in daily life, I’ve seen/heard plenty of “Karen” personalities who weren’t white. Some weren’t female, either. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/134 "2020-02-24T18:40:36Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > If it is not explicitly about white people is it common to refer to Asian, Hispanics, or Black people as Karens?. > [@monstro](#): > > …But I think a good argument can be made that Karen doesn’t get thrown at black, Hispanic, and Asian women because Karen-like women aren’t heavily represented in these groups. Sure, there are viral videos of women from these groups acting quite badly. But calling the cops on innocent people? Blowing up at retail workers for minor offenses? Putting raisins in potato salad? White women are more likely to be guilty of these acts… > > …Is it racist? I think it can be, but there are a other -isms that could also be in play. Like, if someone writes someone off as “ghetto” based solely on their name and race, then it could be racism or classism or both driving their decision-making. I don’t know what we gain by diagnosing the specific -ism, though. Either way, a person is being judged unfairly based on superficial qualities… I think to at least a certain extent, possibly a dominant extent, the entitled “Karen” set of behaviors is attributable to white privilege. If that’s the case, as I said earlier - it makes little sense to suggest that you can’t call out white privilege where you see it because to do so is racist against white people. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/135 "2020-02-24T19:18:06Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Mind you, I don’t agree with everything in BigT’s post. And I do see how Karen can be perceived as racist and sexist. > But I think a good argument can be made that Karen doesn’t get thrown at black, Hispanic, and Asian women because Karen-like women aren’t heavily represented in these groups. Sure, there are viral videos of women from these groups acting quite badly. But calling the cops on innocent people? Blowing up at retail workers for minor offenses? Putting raisins in potato salad? White women are more likely to be guilty of these acts. > > I don’t think Sapphire is the best analogy, since black folks neither created nor perpetuated this stereotype. I think a better analogy would be “ghetto”. It is a word used by black folks to insult other black folks who act a certain way. > > Is it racist? I think it can be, but there are a other -isms that could also be in play. Like, if someone writes someone off as “ghetto” based solely on their name and race, then it could be racism or classism or both driving their decision-making. I don’t know what we gain by diagnosing the specific -ism, though. Either way, a person is being judged unfairly based on superficial qualities. > > I can imagine a person being prejudiced against someone who fits the Karen stereotype at first blush. Depending on the person, racism or sexism or both could be at play. That said, just because I can imagine Karen prejudice doesn’t mean it actually exists in any meaningful way. > > Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk Any stereotype of women in the US is going to apply to more white women because white people are 5x as numerous as any other group. In the absence of actual data any speculation of how prevalent the attitude is among groups is going to fall victim to the chinese robber fallacy, but in my experience middle age women of almost any group are not known for being easy to please. I’m open to correction but I don’t think it is only white people who called women Karens just as it is not only black people who call poor people ghetto. Not every use of a racial slur is necessarily racist but overall by definition racial slurs are racist. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/136 "2020-02-24T21:21:50Z")
I had a huge crush on a girl named Karen in high school. For me, the name can never be derogatory. Whenever someone says a women is a “Karen”, I can’t help it: I think to myself, “You mean she’s beautiful and charming?” Even though in my brain I know that’s not what was meant. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/137 "2020-02-24T22:03:59Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Any stereotype of women in the US is going to apply to more white women because white people are 5x as numerous as any other group. In the absence of actual data any speculation of how prevalent the attitude is among groups is going to fall victim to the chinese robber fallacy, but in my experience middle age women of almost any group are not known for being easy to please. As a middle-aged women, I acknowledge there is a non easy-goingness to my demographic, but “Karen” describes a specific subset of non-easy-goingness. Just like “OK Boomer” describes a specific subset of eye-rolly behavior and sentiment and thus has a certain image attached to it. When I think of the Boomer meme, I don’t see my African print-wearing socialist-leaning, LGBT-ally mother who sometimes has impolite opinions about young people and their shenanigans. I see my socially conservative, Biden-supporting father who thinks Millennials are a bunch of spoiled crybabies…while he cries about his taxes and his Medicare. People with traits like my father are _disproportionately_ found among white men of the comfortable class, so this describes the type of person who “OK Boomer” applies to in my mind. > [@](#): > > I’m open to correction but I don’t think it is only white people who called women Karens just as it is not only black people who call poor people ghetto. Not every use of a racial slur is necessarily racist but overall by definition racial slurs are racist. It is undeniable that black people are much more likely to be called “ghetto” than anyone else. Just like “white trash” is hurled at white people more than anyone else. I just spent a very long and excruciating couple of minutes scouring the internet for Karen memes that show non-white women. The women shown in these memes are exclusively white. This is why I don’t blame anyone for thinking it singles out white women. To me, the gray area comes from the fact that white women are big promoters of the meme. But I think reasonable people should be able to see how non-white women could use this as a fig leaf to hide their racism/misogyny. Kind of like what some racists whites do with the word “nigga”. “BlaCk pEoPLe sAy wHY caN’T I?” I don’t feel comfortable labeling women as “Karen” because to me, it doesn’t feel like a blanket term for any overly entitled woman over a certain age. To me, the insult has become racialized in a way that insults like “bitch” and “queen bee” simply aren’t. I don’t think other people should necessarily share this discomfort, but I do think they could at least try to understand where it comes from. Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/138 "2020-02-24T22:22:13Z")
> [@Seanette](#): > > In my own customer service experience, and as an observer in daily life, I’ve seen/heard plenty of “Karen” personalities who weren’t white. Some weren’t female, either. That’s fine, though good customers are all alike. Every bitchy customer is bitchy in her own way. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Brother\_1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_brother_1/32/3513_2.png) [@Little\_Brother\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Brother_1)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/139 "2020-02-24T22:34:47Z")
Like many previous commenters, I was entirely unfamiliar with the “Karen” putdown. But I’m pleased to see that it’s being called out. Once we’ve condemned and banished the harmful racist, sexist, ageist, karenist negative “Karen” stereotype, at long last we can liberate the Heathers! ---
**Author:** ![Karen\_Lingel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karen_lingel/32/18649_2.png) [@Karen\_Lingel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karen_Lingel)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/140 "2020-02-25T06:29:01Z")
“Karenist” – I like that! Whenever anyone is mean to me I will call them out as filthy karenists! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253.md?page=8)