# Has the term 'Karen' become racist and sexist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 20, 2020, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253 "2020-02-20T19:38:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/141 "2020-02-25T20:57:06Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > That’s not true. A few people have said they have seen it. I will add my voice. I definitely have seen it on Facebook and Twitter. It is a very common visual meme and in many circles it is commonly used as “entitled white woman” and is rarely misunderstood. even the area 51 raid memes brought in the “Karen” meme [![](https://i.redd.it/4hpylq2v85b31.jpg) ](https://i.redd.it/4hpylq2v85b31.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/142 "2020-02-25T21:11:43Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > It is a very common visual meme and in many circles it is commonly used as “entitled white woman” and is rarely misunderstood. > > even the area 51 raid memes brought in the “Karen” meme > > [Reddit - Dive into anything](https://i.redd.it/4hpylq2v85b31.jpg) I laughed at that a little too much. Must be getting punchy in my old age. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/143 "2020-02-25T21:39:42Z")
> [@Little\_Brother\_1](#): > > Once we’ve condemned and banished the harmful racist, sexist, ageist, karenist negative “Karen” stereotype, at long last we can liberate the Heathers! Nah The (non-doper) Heathers just need to be burned at the stake ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2020, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/144 "2020-02-25T21:42:50Z")
Twenty years ago, there were threads here on the SDMB about “Jennifers.” Some of the ‘99ers may recall. At the time I was working with a woman named Jennifer, who was not the most congenial of co-workers, but she was basically OK. I never quite caught on to what “Jennifers” were supposed to be about. I hadn’t known many Jennifers in my life. Sent to Catholic schools, and Catholics are supposed to have saints’ names. Megan and Karen counted as (ethnic variants of) saints’ names, but there is no Saint Jennifer. All I understood about it was that Jennifer was another name whose popularity peaked in the 1960s, so there were enough of them about to become a theme (this was before memes were invented). ---
**Author:** ![Seanette](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/seanette/32/9139_2.png) [@Seanette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seanette)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/145 "2020-02-26T04:00:11Z")
At least it’s not that drunk bimbo screaming at the cat. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2020, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/146 "2020-02-27T05:11:37Z")
Correction: Jennifer’s popularity peaked in the 19 **7** 0s. Anyway, _circa annum_ 2000 the young Jennifers had grown up and entered the workforce, generating [some sort](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=60383) of [hoopla](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=173285) over the name. The difference being, although Jennifer and Karen had peaked in naming popularity around the same time, the Jennifers were young women then, but the Karens are middle-aged now. ---
**Author:** ![Crossbreed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@Crossbreed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crossbreed)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2020, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/147 "2020-02-27T06:13:57Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Strangely, there’s no name for entitled fathers. A Kevin…? ---
**Author:** ![JohnM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/848f3c/32.png) [@JohnM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnM)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2020, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/148 "2020-02-27T17:55:47Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Correction: Jennifer’s popularity peaked in the 19 **7** 0s. Anyway, _circa annum_ 2000 the young Jennifers had grown up and entered the workforce, generating [some sort](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=60383) of [hoopla](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=173285) over the name. The difference being, although Jennifer and Karen had peaked in naming popularity around the same time, the Jennifers were young women then, but the Karens are middle-aged now. I missed both the mentioned threads the first time around, but I immediately thought of the 2003 song _27 Jennifers_: > [@Mike Doughty](#): > > I went to school with 27 Jennifers > 16 Jenns, 10 Jennies, and then there was her ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2020, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/149 "2020-02-27T20:02:10Z")
> [@JohnM](#): > > I missed both the mentioned threads the first time around, but I immediately thought of the 2003 song _27 Jennifers_: Indeed. There you go. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/150 "2020-02-28T03:55:11Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > You know, you’ve always struck me a decent guy. But this is a stupid trollish question. Nothing I posted should give you the impression that I’m a fan of memes and that I want to waste time creating/promoting any. So come the fuck on. I’m going to remember this post at the end of the year when I’m creating my top 10 list. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/151 "2020-02-28T06:00:25Z")
If anyone mentioned this already, I missed it - There was a meme going here on the Dope started by erstwhile poster\*\* Melodyharmonius \*\*about a loser named “Ron”. The name came to mean any really dumb, clueless loser. It was very funny, and no one complained about it being sexist. [Ron thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=495672) [Ron II thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=562379) ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/152 "2020-02-28T10:06:08Z")
I don’t think most of the people who actually propagate the Karen meme would deny that it’s directed at white women. I mean, that’s kinda the aim of it. It’s odd that anyone would deny it. Originally it was a specific subset of white women who acted in an entitled way and was just a fun way to take the piss out of them. Now it’s gone a little beyond that and can be directed at any white woman who’s being a bit uppity. The one time I saw it in a meme about a man, there was also the implicit suggestion that he was being unmanly. It’s not the end of the world or anything, but it’s definitely being used in a sexist way, and possibly racist too. Hopefully it’ll die out like most memes do. If my name were Karen right now I’d be scared of complaining to management even if the complaint were completely justified. Heck, in some coffee shops you’d probably get sniggered at just for being named Karen at all. > [@needscoffee](#): > > If anyone mentioned this already, I missed it - There was a meme going here on the Dope started by erstwhile poster\*\* Melodyharmonius \*\*about a loser named “Ron”. The name came to mean any really dumb, clueless loser. It was very funny, and no one complained about it being sexist. > [Ron thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=495672) > [Ron II thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=562379) It wasn’t exactly widespread, though, was it? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/153 "2020-02-28T10:41:03Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I don’t think most of the people who actually propagate the Karen meme would deny that it’s directed at white women. I mean, that’s kinda the aim of it. It’s odd that anyone would deny it. I find it odd the other way. The term is mostly used by white people, so it would be odd if they were racist against themselves. Not impossible–I’ve seen it. But definitely odd. And I do not think those who use it would think it was. I go to [Urban Dictionary](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Karen). And while they mention Karen being blonde, not a single definition says she has to be white. But, since it’s Internet culture, I also go by my own experience. I encounter the term on Reddit a fair bit. And never have I seen it be about race, just behaviors. Yes, I will agree that the behaviors are more common with middle class white women, but that’s largely due to their position of privilege, and I could see it applying to anyone of any skin color. The sexist argument I can see, though I personally argued it isn’t sexist. I’ve at least encountered a few uses where I could see someone arguing that the person just dislikes women who stand up for themselves. The debate is whether that is the accepted definition, or just some misogynist asshole abusing the word. But I cannot agree that the term is racist. It takes a lot to prove to me that a term that is used by white people is actually racist against white people. You’d basically need to show me that these people classify themselves as different from (other) white people, or are denigrating themselves. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/154 "2020-02-28T11:08:59Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I find it odd the other way. The term is mostly used by white people, so it would be odd if they were racist against themselves. Not impossible–I’ve seen it. But definitely odd. And I do not think those who use it would think it was. > > I go to [Urban Dictionary](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Karen). And while they mention Karen being blonde, not a single definition says she has to be white. > > But, since it’s Internet culture, I also go by my own experience. I encounter the term on Reddit a fair bit. And never have I seen it be about race, just behaviors. Yes, I will agree that the behaviors are more common with middle class white women, but that’s largely due to their position of privilege, and I could see it applying to anyone of any skin color. > > The sexist argument I can see, though I personally argued it isn’t sexist. I’ve at least encountered a few uses where I could see someone arguing that the person just dislikes women who stand up for themselves. The debate is whether that is the accepted definition, or just some misogynist asshole abusing the word. > > But I cannot agree that the term is racist. It takes a lot to prove to me that a term that is used by white people is actually racist against white people. You’d basically need to show me that these people classify themselves as different from (other) white people, or are denigrating themselves. Whether or not it’s racist is arguable, agreed. (Though it’s funny saying arguable and agreed right next to each other :D). The blonde hair thing is very tightly tied in to being white, but I could see the term being used for an “entitled” black or latino woman too even. Or, more importantly, for a woman who isn’t actually acting in an entitled way, but genuinely standing up for herself. That’s what the term has mutated into. And only for women. Men who stand up for themselves are being manly, standing up for their rights. Women are being uppity Karens. When a negative term is only used for one gender, it’s by definition sexist. I mean, I thought the area 51 Karen meme was funny, but that’s because, on rare occasions, even sexist jokes can be funny. They’re still sexist. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2020, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/155 "2020-02-28T15:10:38Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > It wasn’t exactly widespread, though, was it? ?? I specifically said it was a Dope thing. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/156 "2020-03-01T11:46:58Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > ?? I specifically said it was a Dope thing. So it’s not the equivalent of the Karen meme. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/157 "2020-03-01T13:12:17Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I find it odd the other way. The term is mostly used by white people, so it would be odd if they were racist against themselves. Not impossible–I’ve seen it. But definitely odd. And I do not think those who use it would think it was. > > I go to [Urban Dictionary](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Karen). And while they mention Karen being blonde, not a single definition says she has to be white. Did you miss my [earlier post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=22151499&postcount=63)? If you can’t find a single source that refers to Karen as a middle aged white woman, I seriously question your research skills. A term can certainly be used in a racist manner by members of the race that is targeted. Some of the biggest purveyors of “[ghetto](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ghetto)” are black people, after all. I find it odd that anyone would find this phenomenon odd. Have you never heard of internalized racism/sexism? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/158 "2020-03-01T23:07:00Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Of course it is racist and sexist. It is a derogative term that only applies to one race and sex. > > Some of the responses remind me of Robert Byrd talking about how [white](https://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/03/04/byrd.slur/)people can be n-words too. Anyone can be an entitled jerk but only someone of a certain race and sex can be a Karen. > > Whether or not racism and sexism is a big deal when applied to white women is a separate issue. I simply do not understand this view. If I dislike the typical “Karen” personality, I am not making a statement about white people in general or women in general, white women in general, or even white middle aged women in general. I am making a statement about a particular subset of people who are mostly if not all white women who do X. I am not saying all, a majority, or a strong plurality of white women do X, nor am I placing a badge of inferiority on any race or sex. To say that this is racism or sexism simply obliterates any real meaning or limits on those terms. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/159 "2020-03-02T13:44:29Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > I’m still waiting for a single constructive suggestion of how to fix this problem, even if we all stipulate that it is a problem. We are talking about how millions of people behave on the internet. This is not something that anyone has any control over. The funny thing about the Internet is that irony is so hard to establish. In a thread about “Karen” being a derogatory reference to someone who wants to fix every damn thing whether it’s their business or not, is **Airbeck** just taking the exact opposite view in a clever way, establishing a persona who wants nothing to be fixed because it isn’t anyone’s business? We’re through the looking glass here, people. I’m going to go make some memes. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2020, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253/160 "2020-03-03T16:42:15Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I simply do not understand this view. If I dislike the typical “Karen” personality, I am not making a statement about white people in general or women in general, white women in general, or even white middle aged women in general. > > I am making a statement about a particular subset of people who are mostly if not all white women who do X. I am not saying all, a majority, or a strong plurality of white women do X, nor am I placing a badge of inferiority on any race or sex. > > To say that this is racism or sexism simply obliterates any real meaning or limits on those terms. Well, would you use it for a man? If you would, you’d be in a tiny minority. It’s also outgrown the usage you’re thinking of. Though hopefully temporarily. TBH, even though they’re sometimes funny, I don’t really like the name-based memes. In the eighties in England Kevin was a term of insult, and a boy I knew called Kevin suffered hugely from it. It wasn’t the only reason for the bullying (which was the most horrendous bullying I’ve ever come close to - and no, I didn’t take part), but it really didn’t help. It’s not that big a deal, not something worth draconian laws or anything, but it’s not a nice thing to do, to make someone feel bad about their name. So I don’t share the memes or click like on them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-karen-become-racist-and-sexist/848253.md?page=9)