# Has the term "misogynistic" lost all of its meaning? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-misogynistic-lost-all-of-its-meaning/518597 "2009-11-23T02:51:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-misogynistic-lost-all-of-its-meaning/518597/41 "2009-11-23T18:18:16Z")
> [@Dorothea\_Book](#): > > I see your point here **Malthus** and, as I said earlier, I agree that it’s important to maintain the distinction between sexism and misogyny. > > But I wouldn’t want to go as far as you suggest and reserve misogyny as word that applies only to a sub-set of sexists who actively express hatred for women. The thing is that both sexism and misogyny have become much more subtle now that sexism is no longer as acceptable in mainstream society as it once was (despite much that lingers) and misogyny (in the sense of overt hatred) is less tolerated. > > People who put women on a pedestal may be sexist rather than misogynistic. But in practice women are often resented for this preferential treatment even while they are undermined by it (professionally, for example). So it’s actually really hard to disentangle the animus from the other kinds of differential norms and practices that continue to harm women as a group (and are generally bad for men as well). > > I actually think it’s important to emphasize the last point: misogyny is as bad for most men as it is for women. > > As for a word just for women-haters, I think your grandmother had a good one 😉 Detecting a misogynist may be a more difficult thing these days, but there is nothing subtle about the _concept_: a person who, for whatever reason, hates women. A concern with watering down the use of “misogyny” so that it means something other than, and lesser than, “woman hating”, is that inevitably if one started to use the (now suddenly useful) “woman hating” term, it will get watered down in its turn. It seems to be a semantic process similar to the “ephemism treadmill”, by which a label for a concept everyone can agree is broadly speaking “bad” (say, woman-hating) is gradually applied to a broader and broader category of actions (which may also be “bad”, but on whose ‘bad-ness’ there is less universal agreement) as part of the process of semantic and social change; the idea being, I assume, that in so labelling these “less-bad” actions, those who believe they _are_ bad seek to convince others by association. The damage (if damage there be) is to subtelty and complexity of expression. Perhaps it is like unto Canute attempting to hold back the tide and oppose such meaning drift. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-misogynistic-lost-all-of-its-meaning/518597/42 "2009-11-23T18:29:40Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Detecting a misogynist may be a more difficult thing these days, but there is nothing subtle about the _concept_: a person who, for whatever reason, hates women. That’s not what the word means, or rather, that’s not _all_ it means. Hatred is not a necessary component of misogyny. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-misogynistic-lost-all-of-its-meaning/518597/43 "2009-11-23T18:30:57Z")
> [@Dorothea\_Book](#): > > What you’ve articulated is an abstract thesis–_under certain circumstances charges of sexism/misogyny/racism can be false and therefore counterproductive_–that any reasonable person would agree can apply. But what’s the case you have in mind? Plenty of other posters here have given examples of where they think the word is being poorly used. I don’t see any need for a “me too” post regarding those. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-misogynistic-lost-all-of-its-meaning/518597/44 "2009-11-23T19:31:46Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That’s not what the word means, or rather, that’s not _all_ it means. Hatred is not a necessary component of misogyny. I disagree. The word is a composite, derived from the Greek “to hate” and “women”. Its meaning, naturally enough, is usually cited as “…a hatred of women”. Seems odd to me to argue hatred isn’t a necessary component of its meaning. > [@](#): > > Main Entry: mi·sog·y·ny > Pronunciation: \mə-ˈsä-jə-nē > Function: noun > Etymology: Greek misogynia, from misein to hate + gynē woman — more at queen > Date: circa 1656 > : a hatred of women > **[Definition of MISOGYNY](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/misogyny)** > > hatred of, aversion to, or prejudice against women; also : something (such as speech or behavior) that reflects and fosters misogyny… See the full definition Other cites: [http://www.thefreedictionary.com/misogyny](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/misogyny) > [@](#): > > mi·sog·y·ny (m-sj-n) > n. > Hatred of women. [http://www.mondofacto.com/facts/dictionary?misogyny](http://www.mondofacto.com/facts/dictionary?misogyny) > [@](#): > > Aversion to or hatred of women. > > Origin: G. Miseo, to hate, + gyne, woman ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-misogynistic-lost-all-of-its-meaning/518597/45 "2009-11-23T19:40:48Z")
As I’ve already said, attempting to restrict the definition of the word to its literal Greek roots is as specious and tendentions as attempting to argue that “Homophobia” must be defined as a literal fear of homosexuals. The word “misogyny” encompasses a much broader range of attitudes than just the most literal, angry hatred. Is making women wear burkas misogynist? Those who do it swear they don’t hate women. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-misogynistic-lost-all-of-its-meaning/518597/46 "2009-11-23T19:47:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > As I’ve already said, attempting to restrict the definition of the word to its literal Greek roots is as specious and tendentions as attempting to argue that “Homophobia” must be defined as a literal fear of homosexuals. > > The word “misogyny” encompasses a much broader range of attitudes than jus the most litral, angry hatred. Seems the dictionaries disagree with you. The vast majority of them state that the meaning of the word is “hatred of women”. Do you have a cite for what in means other than that, other than a mere “I say so”? In contrast, look up “homophobia” in the same dictionary: > **[Definition of HOMOPHOBIA](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homophobia)** > > discrimination against, aversion to, or fear of homosexuality or gay people… See the full definition > [@](#): > > Main Entry: ho·mo·pho·bia > Pronunciation: \ˌhō-mə-ˈfō-bē-ə > Function: noun > Date: 1969 > : irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals I do not disagree that some people have been _using_ the word to mean something other than actual hatred of women - but as far as I’m concerned, this extention or watering down of its meaning is a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-misogynistic-lost-all-of-its-meaning/518597/47 "2009-11-23T20:03:52Z")
You’re welcome to think that, but I think humanity will survive. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-misogynistic-lost-all-of-its-meaning/518597/48 "2009-11-23T20:35:19Z")
Modern-day misogyny encapsulated into a single phrase: “But is she hot?” If she isn’t hot, she better be making him a sandwich or nursing his son because these are her only saving graces. If she is hot, here are a list of things that she can’t also be: 1. intelligent 2. strong 3. nice 4. non-manipulative 5. non-slutty If a woman is in power, she’s either 1) a lesbian or 2) a slut who slept with the boss. (That is, unless she’s black…then it’s because of affirmative action, but I digress.) Anything written, produced, or performed by a woman automatically stinks. Any time a woman disagrees with a man, she’s being hysterical and irrational. A woman can not be taken seriously if she looks or sounds feminine. These are all ideas that are flavored with misogyny. Some involve more “hate” than others, but it comes back to devaluing women and treating them like lesser creatures. ---
**Author:** ![Dorothea\_Book](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dorothea\_Book](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorothea_Book)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-misogynistic-lost-all-of-its-meaning/518597/49 "2009-11-23T20:44:50Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Seems the dictionaries disagree with you. The vast majority of them state that the meaning of the word is “hatred of women”. Do you have a cite for what in means other than that, other than a mere “I say so”? I do **Malthus** , from the ultra-authoritative _Oxford English Dictionary_, by far the most thoroughly researched dictionary in English, with citations extending back (in the case of this entry) to the seventh century. According to this source “misogyny” means > [@](#): > > Hatred or dislike of, _or prejudice_ against women. [emphasis added] Prejudice pretty much covers the kind of misguided assumptions that don’t amount to overt hatred or dislike which have been referred to in this thread. That said, I agree the word misogyny shouldn’t be overused. But I’d also maintain that misogyny may be quite subtle (so subtle that the person isn’t aware of his–or her–hatred, dislike or prejudice against women even though it runs very deep and shapes actions as well as perceptions). I specifically used the word “resentment” in my previous post because it describes a real kind of animus that I think many women face–as workers, as wives, as parents, etc.–which is hardly ever perceived by the person who is feeling it and expressing to be the result of any kind of active hatred or dislike. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-misogynistic-lost-all-of-its-meaning/518597/50 "2009-11-23T20:47:21Z")
I just noticed in another thread a poster basically saying "I hate doing job XYZ because its almost always women doing the work and these women do stupid ABC things which I hate " Is that worthy of the M word? Does it make a difference whether the person’s observation is actually true or not? Does it make a difference whether the poster is a woman or not ? ---
**Author:** ![Dorothea\_Book](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dorothea\_Book](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorothea_Book)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-misogynistic-lost-all-of-its-meaning/518597/51 "2009-11-23T20:48:20Z")
P.S. I can’t provide you to a link to the _Oxford English Dictionary_ because it isn’t a free resource. However, my guess is that you can look at it through your local public library, which probably has a subscription you can use, if you wish to check the citation more fully. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-misogynistic-lost-all-of-its-meaning/518597/52 "2009-11-23T20:49:14Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > I just noticed in another thread a poster basically saying "I hate doing job XYZ because its almost always women doing the work and these women do stupid ABC things which I hate " > > Is that worthy of the M word? > > Does it make a difference whether the person’s observation is actually true or not? > > Does it make a difference whether the poster is a woman or not ? link? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-misogynistic-lost-all-of-its-meaning/518597/53 "2009-11-23T21:01:12Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > link? Do you or anyone else really need that to make a decision? If its not detailed enough, create your own more detailed but relevatnt version that is or isnt M and why it is or isnt M. I have no desire to drag some other random poster into a debate because of what they posted elsewhere. In hindsight I shouldnt even have mentioned it being a poster somewhere else. Please respect the other posters right to be left alone despite my slip up here. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-misogynistic-lost-all-of-its-meaning/518597/54 "2009-11-23T21:07:27Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You’re welcome to think that, but I think humanity will survive. Likewise. The difference is, you have no facts or arguments to back up your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-misogynistic-lost-all-of-its-meaning/518597/55 "2009-11-23T21:29:23Z")
> [@Dorothea\_Book](#): > > I do **Malthus** , from the ultra-authoritative _Oxford English Dictionary_, by far the most thoroughly researched dictionary in English, with citations extending back (in the case of this entry) to the seventh century. According to this source “misogyny” means > > Prejudice pretty much covers the kind of misguided assumptions that don’t amount to overt hatred or dislike which have been referred to in this thread. > > That said, I agree the word misogyny shouldn’t be overused. > > But I’d also maintain that misogyny may be quite subtle (so subtle that the person isn’t aware of his–or her–hatred, dislike or prejudice against women even though it runs very deep and shapes actions as well as perceptions). > > I specifically used the word “resentment” in my previous post because it describes a real kind of animus that I think many women face–as workers, as wives, as parents, etc.–which is hardly ever perceived by the person who is feeling it and expressing to be the result of any kind of active hatred or dislike. Often, the meaning of “prejudice” is used essentually as synonimous with “hatred”: > [@](#): > > Main Entry: 1prej·u·dice > Pronunciation: \ˈpre-jə-dəs > Function: noun > Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin praejudicium previous judgment, damage, from prae- + judicium judgment — more at judicial > Date: 13th century > 1 : injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one’s rights; especially : detriment to one’s legal rights or claims > 2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : **an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics** Emphasis added. > **[Definition of PREJUDICE](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prejudice)** > > an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics; an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge; preconceived judgment or opinion… See... Clearly, such a use of “prejudice” - i.e., “irrational hostility” - is fully consistent with “hatred”, and it seems to me obvious that it is in this sense that the Oxford Dictionary is using the word - not in some _other_ sense that contradicts the notion that the word is intended to convey the meaning of hatred towards women. In short, what we have here is multiple cites which use the single meaning of “hatred” and one which, in addition, uses the term “prejudice” as an additional example. Seems to me that they are not contradictory. So I disagree with this: > [@](#): > > Prejudice pretty much covers the kind of misguided assumptions that don’t amount to overt hatred or dislike which have been referred to in this thread. This does not necessarily follow, since the term “prejudice” itself can mean “irrational hostility”. What is required is a cite that actually says that “misogyny” does not require some sort of hatred, dislike, or hostility directed towards women. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-misogynistic-lost-all-of-its-meaning/518597/56 "2009-11-23T21:30:41Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Modern-day misogyny encapsulated into a single phrase: “But is she hot?” > > If she isn’t hot, she better be making him a sandwich or nursing his son because these are her only saving graces. > > If she is hot, here are a list of things that she can’t also be: > > 1. intelligent > 2. strong > 3. nice > 4. non-manipulative > 5. non-slutty > > If a woman is in power, she’s either 1) a lesbian or 2) a slut who slept with the boss. (That is, unless she’s black…then it’s because of affirmative action, but I digress.) > > Anything written, produced, or performed by a woman automatically stinks. > > Any time a woman disagrees with a man, she’s being hysterical and irrational. > > A woman can not be taken seriously if she looks or sounds feminine. > > These are all ideas that are flavored with misogyny. Some involve more “hate” than others, but it comes back to devaluing women and treating them like lesser creatures. What you’ve described is hardly modern misogyny. It’s archaic sexism. I’ve worked in a variety of environments, some predominantly male environments and some predominantly female. And, being a guy, I’ve been in the secret, guy-only, conspiratorial conversations that we regularly schedule. And seriously I’ve never met guys who talk or think the way you describe. Honestly I can’t think of a single example. I’m not saying misogyny doesn’t exist, I’m saying I doubt that your description matches most misogynists. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-misogynistic-lost-all-of-its-meaning/518597/57 "2009-11-23T21:39:19Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > What you’ve described is hardly modern misogyny. It’s archaic sexism. Well, perhaps you could please the audience with some examples of what you consider misogynistic? Your post is not very enlightening as it stands. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-misogynistic-lost-all-of-its-meaning/518597/58 "2009-11-23T21:40:20Z")
I am not an authoritative source, but in my opinion “mysogynist” retains its original definition. I do not think that mild sexism cuts it. But then, I still think that homophobia has something to do with phobia, so what do I know. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-misogynistic-lost-all-of-its-meaning/518597/59 "2009-11-23T21:43:44Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Well, perhaps you could please the audience with some examples of what you consider misogynistic? Your post is not very enlightening as it stands. That “cocksucker” guy from the HBO series Deadwood would probably be a decent example. Though to be fair the character lived in tough times and had a bad childhood. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-misogynistic-lost-all-of-its-meaning/518597/60 "2009-11-23T21:45:12Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > That “cocksucker” guy from the HBO series Deadwood would probably be a decent example. Though to be fair the character lived in tough times and had a bad childhood. I do not know who that is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-misogynistic-lost-all-of-its-meaning/518597.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-term-misogynistic-lost-all-of-its-meaning/518597.md?page=4)