Has the U.S. "War on Terror" been a big, pathetic waste of time/resources?

I’m not anti-liberal, I’m anti-Great Debates. Somehow, the intelligent people on this board gave up the good fight a few years back and let GD become this echo chamber of loony left-wing thought. It’s so brazen that now we’re poisoning the well in thread titles and no one bats an eye.

I’m not the hero this forum wants, I’m the hero this forum needs. I’m basically your Batman.

You’re welcome.

Read #1 on my list and tell me “No one ever bothered to look into why they became terrorists to begin with” ain’t exactly that.

Okay, it ain’t “exactly that”. If you fail to understand that, sorry.

If this board were radical the main response would be that the War on Terror is a war of terrorism and that America is the leading terror state. Or that 9/11 was a false flag. Or that Americans deserve to experience the same violence they cheerfully orchestrate in other countries and that any moral outrage from blowback is hypocritical. Instead what you see is the usual managerial liberalism where people fret over resource allocation and opportunity costs.

What do you think of the following quote?

That’s from the Unabomber’s Manifesto.

To me there are some reasons for the disparity. These places are far away and alien to our everyday experiences, so less psychologically relevant. Another reason is a principle of morality that says you’re more responsible for your own actions than those of others. Ostensibly Westerners live in democratic societies, which means we are partly responsible for the government’s policies, and thus also responsible for criticizing and changing them.

I doubt that I would agree with much that the Unabomber believed, but your quote sounds pretty on-point, if I must say so.

To me the Unabomber did a nice job of creating the bog-standard RW strawman and whacking it. IOW, he missed the left’s point completely.
IMO:

A rightist looks at other countries and says “we’re X much better than them” and takes pride and joy in however big he measures X to be. And he’s correct to a degree; The US is vastly better morally and socially than outfits like China or Russia.

A leftist looks at our country and says “We’re Y much less good than we could be if we tried harder.” He feels discomfort and sadness at however big he measures Y to be. And he’s correct to a degree; the US is vastly less good morally and socially than it could be if we tried harder. Just as the 2017 US is vastly more just and good than was the 1880s US because we try harder now than they did.

The truth is that both groups are mostly right. All they disagree on is which standard of comparison is the one we should use.
The reason the two groups talk past each other so much is they’re metaphorically standing back to back as they survey the countryside. One’s facing the metaphoric hills and the other the metaphoric valleys.

Some people like to confuse this with pessimism / optimism or with loyalty / disloyalty. Nope. The underlying difference has IMO little to do with either of those. But it is easy for an unimaginative person to mis-map the other side’s reasons into those convenient buckets.

Yes there is.
http://dcmo.defense.gov/Portals/47/Documents/Publications/Annual%20Performance%20Plan/FY2016_Performance_Budget.pdf

well said!

mc

Can I get a cite for the claim that the media invented the term GWOT (Global War on Terror)? From my memory it was a Reagan era defense department term that W. Bush revived and used after 9/11. There are a number of official government documents that use the term, including the most recent proposed budget (News | House Committee on Appropriations - Republicans). If this is a USG created term and not a media created term, it seems to undermine the rest of your arguments.

OP, the WoT has been a rousing success if you’re in the MIC or the security state. If you’re a civilian in Yemen being maimed by American cluster bombs or a Syrian watching your country disintegrate, not so much. Reminds me of debates over the drug war. If you assume the goal was to wipe out drugs it’s a failure: drugs are everywhere, Mexico is on fire, the prison population exploded, and there’s so much human misery to catalogue. Otherwise it’s working out well, plenty of money and power to go around for its backers.

I didn’t mean to present a “gotcha, you agree with Ted Kaczynski, you must be crazy” moment. From what I remember his manifesto was an interesting analysis of leftist psychology but mostly a standard critique of industrial civilization, alienation, dehumanization, how we’re going to destroy everything beautiful and enslave ourselves with our own systems of control unless we dismantle it before it’s too late, that sorta thing.

I don’t think he’s right wing, more like some flavor of anarchist. I did a search for “conservative” and he rarely mentions them, but says their solutions are pointless or make things worse, e.g. deregulating corporations to loot and plunder, and an observation that some people love guns because they give a rare sense of control in modern society, real or imagined. Apparently he preferred the Democrats in 2008.

Where? I’m specifically refuting that there is a line item. One, singular.

You’re talking to the guy with one of these. Of course it’s an official term. I’m saying it’s not like it’s well-defined. You could say the same thing about “bomb” or “counter-narcotic operation.” It doesn’t undermine a thing.

I guess you slept through the first attack on the WTC and the Boston Marathon bombing to mention just two other attacks on the USA.

There is much criticism here but no alternative strategies.

There was also the car bomb in Times Square, which could have been ugly if it had not failed. And the LAX bomb that did not happen because a border agent thought Ahmed Ressam was “acting hinky”.

Those are serious failures on the part of the GWoT: incidents that it failed to avert. Failed to avert. Which is to say, the effort to combat terrorism has not been particularly successful in doing so. And we kill lots of operatives, every chance we get, but their numbers seem to be doing the opposite of shrinking.

From what I can tell, the GWoT is remarkably ineffective at stopping terrorism and creates more terrorists than it kills or captures. If that is anywhere close to accurate, I am not sure what kind of “alternative strategy” you might be looking for, besides, maybe, stop throwing more kerosene on the burning house.

Wow, that’s a strange response. Of course there is not a singular line item. GWOT is an entire program in the defense department budget with many subsidiary line items. A single line item would actually indicate that it was less defined than a whole host of line items making up a large part of the Pentagon’s mission.

Wow, shiny. You’re talking to a guy with a MA in International Relations, who has run stabilization programs in Afghanistan and Iraq, taught classes at Ft. Leavenworth to the Army and has been working in conflict zones for 17 years.

You didn’t just say that GWOT was poorly defined, you said it was a catch all “newspaper term.” If it is ill-defined, it is ill-defined by the USG and I would guess that it is ill-defined because it is in the Pentagon’s interests for it to be so. The GWOT has destabilized the region, extending the reach of radicalized Islamists to Turkey and not only made us less safe, but also less free. I’d call that a colossal failure.

Americans, on American soil, are killed by terrorists at the same rate as they are killed by sharks, and most Americans live nowhere near the sea. Spending billions of dollars to blow up a couple of dozen men in a cave, thousands of miles from our shore, is a complete waste of resources.

Fundamentally, you can fight terrorism by moving away from oil. Terrorist organizations are, effectively, the end-result of poor government. And they serve as useful idiots for local governments to screw over their neighbors, so they dump oil funds into these groups, who then go out and commit horrible acts locally (there are many terrorist attacks every year, just not in America). Spend the same amount of money that we spend blowing up ordnance in the Middle East on subsidizing fuel from Scandinavia and South America, loosen restrictions on fracking, and Middle Eastern terrorism will start spinning around the drain.

Rather than blowing up terrorists in the hills, there would be far more value investing in and protecting schools and infrastructure in countries like Afghanistan and Iraq. But that’s only really feasible if you’re willing to occupy and own these countries for a generation or two, and hand-recruit the government and military by American control, to weed out corruption and sectarianism. That’s something that Bush I realized was necessary for any real change, but beyond political viability. His son was too stupid to realize this was the solution after actually going through the effort of occupying Iraq. He squandered the opportunity instead on establishing American bases, to fight terrorism and protect Middle Eastern oil, and left it to the Iraqis to try and figure out how to become a functioning nation again.

But in terms of saving American lives, you would do a thousand-fold more investing in self-driving cars, to bring down vehicle-related deaths, or setting up a million dollar X-Prize to invent an alcohol replacement that was still fun, but didn’t make people so unsafe in a vehicle or to their romantic partner and society. In terms of return on investment, you’re just not going to beat that, even if you can figure out how to kill terrorists for a penny each. And certainly not when you’re spending billions per one.

Personally, I think that there is a great value in moving nations towards modernity. Global stability is a boon to business and trade, and functioning states with a free market are much better investments than backwater dictatorships, even if the former is going to slowly raise their prices over time. And military intervention is, probably, a necessary and cost-effective method towards that aim. But fighting the disaffected rebels of those dictatorial nations is not, in most cases, going to be a particular meaningful use of resources in that aim. It’s like wiping sweat off a sick man’s brow and claiming that you’re helping to cure the world of the flu. You’re not even rising to the level of fighting a symptom of the illness. You’re just clearing away the evidence of that symptom.

A good solution would probably be something along the lines of strong-arming dictators into benevolent activities towards their people, rewarding them if they do so, and taking them out if they do not. Probably you would need to sell China into supporting this (or Russia, but that’s not going to happen), and then patiently and consistently enact this strategy for decades across many presidencies.

Unfortunately, we have not had a President smart enough and bold enough to move along those lines since Bush I, and I’m not hopeful that we’ll see another such President for quite some time. Intelligence is not appetizing to the party that encourages boldness, and boldness is not appetizing to the party that encourages intelligence.

That was beautiful Sage Rat. Truly the defining post of the topic.

Dont agree. It was long and rambling, dances around the topic and doesnt address actual terror attacks. Schools and education have little or no correlation with violence. Remember Germany and the Holocaust; the USSR and state sponsored murder. Mohammed Atta was highly educated.

He also claimed that the terrorists arent interested in attacking us…

Or, maybe our law enforcement has done an outstanding job protecting us from it. There have been other efforts but they have failed.

And, again, this is flat out wrong. First WTC bombing 1993 World Trade Center bombing - Wikipedia and the more recent Boston Marathon bombing. These 2000 millennium attack plots - Wikipedia; this 1998 United States embassy bombings - Wikipedia and this USS Cole bombing - Wikipedia.

How?

Anecdote is not data.

https://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/terrorism-immigration-risk-analysis

Anecdote is not data.

Neither is “because I said so.” Post your cite or shut your mouth.

http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0019/001913/191341e.pdf

You doubted that anyone had done the research?

Remember that things which act against negative behavior simply change the probabilities. Probabilistically, you’re not going to win the lottery and you should bet against any one person who says they are going to win it. That doesn’t mean that no one ever wins the lottery.