# Has the UK gun ban improved the situation any? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2004, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-uk-gun-ban-improved-the-situation-any/240213 "2004-04-15T19:01:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2004, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-uk-gun-ban-improved-the-situation-any/240213/41 "2004-04-17T15:05:27Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I’ve never seen any evidence that legalizing concealed carry leads to a significant drop in crime. Maybe you can provide some. Read John Lotts book if you want comprehensive studies. I can also tell you that I personally stopped 2 crimes against me with my gun, so I reduced the crime rate against me by 100%. I feel happy, safe and comfortable with a personal zero crime rate. As far as anybody/everybody else goes, it sort of academic. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-uk-gun-ban-improved-the-situation-any/240213/42 "2004-04-17T15:17:19Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Yeah, that’s probably part of it. But I suspect that the better part of the decrease came about from the efforts of groups on _both_ sides of the issue to: **a)** raise awareness of the problem; **b)** run campaigns to educate gun owners on safe handling and storage methods; **c)** educate kids on the dangers of firearms; and **d)** make gun locks more readily available. I should note that item **d)** is not only advocated by pro- and anti-gun groups, but also gun manufacturers (nearly all new guns are sold with a lock of the appropriate type now) and government bodies. Many of these entities provide gun locks free of charge. As a long-time member of the gun-owning community, I can tell you that safety has become a much more prominent issue than it once was. The outcome of all these efforts and education is that it has become less socially-acceptable to store guns in an unsafe manner. Yeah but the possibility of goint to jail if a child got hold of a gun could very well have spurred the implementation of **a** through **d**. Gun manufacturere and sellers don’t ordinarily do something to increase their cost, such as adding locks, without some pressure from outside. ---
**Author:** ![WILLASS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/54ee81/32.png) [@WILLASS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WILLASS)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2004, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-uk-gun-ban-improved-the-situation-any/240213/43 "2004-04-17T19:49:57Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > Things are basically business as usual, outside Brixton. Hey, I resent this! I live in Brixton and its fine here there are far worse places in London than Brixton. Hackney anyone? Murder Mile? The only place I ever got a gun pulled on me was Elephant and Castle…Oh and St Pauls in Bristol…twice. Man, I live in some nice areas don’t I? I have to say that I do think things are getting out of hand in some areas but they seem to ebb and flow. St Pauls in Bristol has now cleaned up its act, it was once the scene of a huge riot in the eighties, went on to be dubbed ‘The Southwest’s Drugs Superstore’ and was privy to more than a few gun related murders, stabbings and even a killing with a nail gun! Having recently been back to visit friends I have noticed that it seems to have pretty much cleaned up its act now but I suspect that the residents of Easton now have all the crack dealers and ho’s on their doorsteps… ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2004, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-uk-gun-ban-improved-the-situation-any/240213/44 "2004-04-17T20:18:40Z")
I believe Nottingham is now gun crime capital of the UK, which is nice. It also has regular armed police patrols in two suburbs; St Anns and The Meadows. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-uk-gun-ban-improved-the-situation-any/240213/45 "2004-04-17T20:42:53Z")
see [http://www.cybershooters.org/law.htm](http://www.cybershooters.org/law.htm) for an overview of gun laws here. No, recent bans haven’t reduced gun crime any…but they were never intended to. What they were intended to do was provide the Dunblane victims’ families with revenge on legal gun owners (the real perpetrator being beyond justice) and destroy legal pistol ownership, as a preparatory to ending all (legal) gun ownership. We are currently awaiting the Home Office’s fresh proposals for additional restrictions. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-uk-gun-ban-improved-the-situation-any/240213/46 "2004-04-17T21:11:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Operators of X-rays in airports are looking for suspicious shapes. An assembled gun is distinctive in outline. So is a collection of bullets. However, unless well-experienced in handgun assembly, individual parts will not jump out as suspicious. How did we get to the stage where X-Ray operators were not familiar with the contruction of a gun? Aren’t these the same people who are protecting air passengers from lunatics? ---
**Author:** ![WILLASS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/54ee81/32.png) [@WILLASS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WILLASS)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2004, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-uk-gun-ban-improved-the-situation-any/240213/47 "2004-04-17T21:29:02Z")
I doubt that anybody would bother importing guns or bullets using there hand luggage on a flight so I don’t really see the point of discussing the gun parts/bullets argument. Baggage handlers are looking for single weapons that may be used in flight not hoards of smuggled gun parts. Any smuggler would use freight to move a load as anything smaller would not be cost effective and as far as i’m aware they don’t X-ray freight at least not in the same way as an airport does. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2004, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-uk-gun-ban-improved-the-situation-any/240213/48 "2004-04-17T21:53:31Z")
I’m in total disagreement with the current UK firearms laws - and to say we’ve always had strict laws is total tosh. For example, Max Hastings, in his autobiography talks about going shooting with rifles as a youth in the early 60s and how this was viewed as perfectly normal. The laws today mean that any Dunblane-like incident would be far worse as it would be far less likely that a local concerned citizen could intervene with their own firearm. As for the police, well, I’ve been burgled three times and each time the police have done f\*ck all. They’re more interested in catching speeding motorists. And people get semi-automatic bail and derisory sentences from the courts… ---
**Author:** ![fortytwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f9ae1b/32.png) [@fortytwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fortytwo)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2004, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-uk-gun-ban-improved-the-situation-any/240213/49 "2004-04-18T12:26:34Z")
> [@qts](#): > > …The laws today mean that any Dunblane-like incident would be far worse as it would be far less likely that a local concerned citizen could intervene with their own firearm… The laws today mean it’s far less likely that a"Dunblane" will happen, and having “concerned citizens” shooting it out on the streets doesn’t make me very happy either. You can’t be advocating citizens walking about armed surely? ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-uk-gun-ban-improved-the-situation-any/240213/50 "2004-04-19T11:00:53Z")
It strikes me as quite simple… Hungerford - loony goes nuts with a legally owned assault rifle. Assault rifles banned. Number of market towns shot up by assault rifles since? None. Dunblane - loony goes nuts with a legally owned handgun. Handguns banned. Number of primary schools shot up by handguns since? None. It really is very easy to get hold of a gun in the UK. If you know where to score charlie you know where to buy a gun. It is actually harder to buy bullets than to buy a pistol. However the deterrent of a five year jail sentence for a first offence is sufficient to put most people off. I know it works on me. ---
**Author:** ![Martiju](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@Martiju](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martiju)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-uk-gun-ban-improved-the-situation-any/240213/51 "2004-04-19T11:15:28Z")
I think there’s a bit of a misapprehension here. It is NOT illegal to own a registered firearm, anymore than it was before Dunblane. Shotguns and rifles are freely available (though not free!) all around the country. The only thing, as I recall, that was made illegal were certain varieties of pistol and small arms. As anecdotal proof that the gun laws are not quite as tight as we’re pretending I can tell you that I’ve been out on plenty of locally-hosted (ie. not as part of a club) clay bird shoots both in the South West and in Northern Ireland - the latter, I’d suggest, does not even conform to the slightest gun control anyway - for obvious reasons! ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-uk-gun-ban-improved-the-situation-any/240213/52 "2004-04-19T11:24:37Z")
> [@Martiju](#): > > As anecdotal proof that the gun laws are not quite as tight as we’re pretending I can tell you that I’ve been out on plenty of locally-hosted (ie. not as part of a club) clay bird shoots both in the South West and in Northern Ireland - the latter, I’d suggest, does not even conform to the slightest gun control anyway - for obvious reasons! There is a measure of gun control in Northern Ireland, but handguns are not illegal there. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-uk-gun-ban-improved-the-situation-any/240213/53 "2004-04-19T12:16:21Z")
There are parts of the UK where it is still legal to own a handgun - the channel Islands. THese never really were hotbeds of gun crime though (not since the nazis left anyway) ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Friendly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Mr\_Friendly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Friendly)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-uk-gun-ban-improved-the-situation-any/240213/54 "2004-04-19T12:23:56Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > There are parts of the UK where it is still legal to own a handgun - the channel Islands. > > THese never really were hotbeds of gun crime though (not since the nazis left anyway) Indeed. I second those who have said the increase in gun crime is due to an increase in hard drug dealing. I would also add that IMHO that increase here, and worldwide, is a direct result of the failed policy of prohibition which continues to dominate mainstream law enforcement’s approach to drugs. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-uk-gun-ban-improved-the-situation-any/240213/55 "2004-04-19T19:55:22Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > It strikes me as quite simple… > > Hungerford - loony goes nuts with a legally owned assault rifle. Assault rifles banned. Number of market towns shot up by assault rifles since? None. > > Dunblane - loony goes nuts with a legally owned handgun. Handguns banned. Number of primary schools shot up by handguns since? None. > > It really is very easy to get hold of a gun in the UK. If you know where to score charlie you know where to buy a gun. It is actually harder to buy bullets than to buy a pistol. However the deterrent of a five year jail sentence for a first offence is sufficient to put most people off. I know it works on me. This idiocy needs special attention. How long had it been legal to own guns before the ban? How many school shootings were there? Now you’re citing that there’s been no school shootings in seven years since a ban as evidence of something? Are you serious? You talk as if it was a regular occurrence that someone would walk into a school and shoot randomly. ---
**Author:** ![TheRealJohnPeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TheRealJohnPeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheRealJohnPeat)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-uk-gun-ban-improved-the-situation-any/240213/56 "2004-04-19T23:42:52Z")
I must apologise if people think my attitude to handgun ‘sports’ is a poor one - but I really don’t think it’s a major loss in the scale of things… As a society, the UK is attempting (perhaps successfully but more likely not) to maintain an unarmed peace - wheras the US is moving towards what can’t be much more than an armed standoff - with a large element of ‘arms race’ thrown in. To my knowledge, nowhere in the UK do gangs of kids have easy access to submachine guns and even heavier artillery and it would take a LOT to change that - this is a good thing. US Gang Kids only own submachine guns because it was no longer ‘enough’ just to own a pistol - because someone else had something bigger and so on and so on… In the UK, owning a 2nd-World-War pistol which just-might fire makes you Scarface (quite literally if you didn’t clear the barrel correctly!) - and long may it last… I’m a firm believer that most people who think owning a gun will protect them are only likely to end-up looking down the wrong end of it someday - some people just watch too many movies, they think pulling a gun makes them God wheras it just makes them a source of a firearm and a target… JP ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-uk-gun-ban-improved-the-situation-any/240213/57 "2004-04-20T10:36:26Z")
> [@+MDI](#): > > This idiocy needs special attention. How long had it been legal to own guns before the ban? How many school shootings were there? Now you’re citing that there’s been no school shootings in seven years since a ban as evidence of something? Are you serious? > > You talk as if it was a regular occurrence that someone would walk into a school and shoot randomly. Now you’re just being daft. What is an acceptable number of primary school shootings? For me one is too many, and we’ve had one. It is impossible to say that there would have been another without the ban. However it is beyond question that there have been none since the ban. It is also definately true that there have been similar events in the US - not a direct comparison I know, but instructive. I would also be interested in any justification you may be able to offer for private ownership of assault weapons. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-uk-gun-ban-improved-the-situation-any/240213/58 "2004-04-20T10:49:15Z")
> [@Martiju](#): > > I think there’s a bit of a misapprehension here. It is NOT illegal to own a registered firearm, anymore than it was before Dunblane. Shotguns and rifles are freely available (though not free!) all around the country. The only thing, as I recall, that was made illegal were certain varieties of pistol and small arms. Correct. And to put some numbers on that, the handgun ban resulted in the banning of approximately 160,000 guns. Yes, that’s all we had between the fifty-odd million of us. In comparison, there are over 2 million shotguns in circulation. These numbers also blow away misconceptions you hear from gun supporters in the US who claim (wrongly) that British people are suffering from a crime wave as a result of not being able to defend themselves. Apart from the fact that the handguns were almost all used for sport anyway, what criminal is going to be emboldened by the knowledge that 8% of the guns out there have now been removed? ---
**Author:** ![notquitekarpov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@notquitekarpov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notquitekarpov)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-uk-gun-ban-improved-the-situation-any/240213/59 "2004-04-20T11:44:29Z")
I’m a Brit and was and remain opposed to the hand gun ban. The school shooting was nothing to do with handgun ownership and everything to do with the police totally screwing up and then blaming others. The guys was clearly somebody who should never have had a license, many people in the gun owning community had told the authorities so and still they renewed his licence. I am not anti-gun control but the handgun ban did nothing to reduce gun crime. The street price of handguns in London has fallen. All it did was piss off lawful and responsible gun owners. I was never a gun owner myself but I am familar with the issues from my brother who is, and was a handgun owner in the UK too. Now his handgun collection resides in Belgium awaiting the day some common sense returns to UK law. Over history far more people around the world have been killed by their governments than by their fellow citizens. Maybe we should disarm the state and arm the populous as a better bet. (OK I was not being \*that \* serious 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-uk-gun-ban-improved-the-situation-any/240213/60 "2004-04-20T11:55:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Maybe we should disarm the state and arm the populace as a better bet. With enough cheap assault rifles floating around, the UK might one day be as stable and crime-free as Angola. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-uk-gun-ban-improved-the-situation-any/240213.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-uk-gun-ban-improved-the-situation-any/240213.md?page=4)