Also:
The guns didn’t do anything. Klebold and Harris did. And perhaps the reason they were able to kill so effectively with what really are quite unremarkable and ordinary guns, is that they had been planning this little assualt for more than year. It wasn’t just some nutcase who goes over the edge and shoots up his office mates in a fit of pique. It was a meticulously planned and staged operation. Read the links if you don’t believe me.
Uncle Beer
It would appear that we are in a dialogue of the deaf.
Whilst pump action shot guns and rinky-dink 9mm automatics aren’t considered particularly lethal in the USA I can tell you they would scare the bejesus out of us wimpy limeys.
But when all’s said and done the heavily armed American populace is doing what was intended - after all we haven’t burned the White House down since 1812, so it’s working. (needless to say the moment you gave up the right to arm bears or whatever it is we’d be on you like a flash and the Queen would be telling you what to do, you’d be driving on the left and saying “aluminium” properly. But you have seen through our fiendish plot)
The simple fact is that any Brit with a grudge gets into a fight and maybe, at worst, duffs up another Brit. He doesn’t head for the nearest water tower and start thinning out the neighbourhood.
Well you can have a dialogue with me if you like, a fellow Brit - a fellow yiddo no less! 
(football reference BTW - not racial slur!).
Normally resident in UK and plan to be again, so long as the street of Luanda turn out to be as safe as I innocent believe.
My views on gun control in the UK differ markedly from yours it seems, and maybe I am a more challenging target for the various strawmans we have seen here to date than our US cousins?
My opinion on this is that guns are a tool. They are a tool for some legitimate uses and should be allowed for those uses, as they are in the UK.
You want to shoot pheasants (which I enjoy doing)? Then buy a shot gun - no one is stopping you (unless you’re a known wrong 'un).
You want to hunt deer? Buy a rifle. No one is stopping you.
But what purpose could a civilian have for wanting a handgun or assault rifle/machine gun? I simply can’t see one.
The only people who are inconvenienced by our laws are wrong 'uns and gun nuts (pretty much the same thing to me).
Also; no one isn’t against some form of arms control. Tanks? Jets? Missiles? Nukes? It’s just a question of where one draws the line. I’m happy where ours is at present.
I also think it’s perfectly acceptable to shoot gooners (only to wound though)
Then book them for diving.
Thanks OST - we are not too far apart.
Have to say surprised to hear you shoot yourself and yet seem to want to prevent others enjoying their side of what is after all a SPORT. You do not hunt to eat - you hunt because you enjoy it so give it a rest with this “it is only legitimate as a tool” bit. My brother shoots holes in paper targets - he enjoys that and should retain a perfect right to do so IMHO with pretty much whatever tools he wishes.
You could use your argument to justify a ban in historic sports cars - cars are only a tool, sports cars are unnecessary and dangerous - the encourage people to drive FAST, the historic ones have poorer brakes and handling than modern cars - they are clearly a danger to the owners and other road users and should be banned etc etc. What is the real difference? Motor vehicles misused kill far more people than firearms ever will in the UK… (Oh, and I own an historic MG sports car - obviously anti-social activity runs in my family).
Meanwhile my brother also chooses to collect historic full bore weapons and shoot them - again a perfectly respectable hobby in my view which ties in with his interest in the Historical Breechloading Rifle Association, the WW2 Living History Association, The British Military Parachuting Association, The Shooters Rights Association etc etc.
We agree on some things though - I too would not support legal ownership of fully automatic weapons. There is no need to get into the area of international arms control agreements between nations - a separate and distinct subject surely, and not just a matter of degree.
But I thought shotguns were scary? Did you not also type this?
There’s not a fuck of a lot of difference between a double-barreled upland game shotgun and pump-action one. Three shells. Well that, and about eight-hundred bucks.
It’s all a question of balance.
We have to balance your (no doubt sane and stable) brother’s inconvenience in not being able to shoot holes in targets against the possibility that someone could use the same weapon to shoot holes in people. To me this is a no-brainer.
Sports cars ARE controlled - by the MOT process, and indirectly by insurance rates. There are also other controls such as speed limits and so on (not to mention the fact that if you have a 1960’s Aston Martin you really would rather not crash it).
Yes I shoot for pleasure (and drive a Jag) - I do eat what I shoot, but don’t have to.
As I say, no one would say that there should be no controls, so the debate is where those controls should cut in - I’m happy with where they are at the moment and really don’t see that they need moving.
Ohh please :rolleyes:
And there’s a mindset between them: Game gun - for shooting game (and possibly forcing boys to marry your pregnant daughter).
Pump Action shotgun - intended to shoot people.
It’s the difference between a shotgun and a sawn-off shot gun. Intent. Innit?
Being obsessed (aka “enthusiatic”) about guns isn’t a teensy-weensy bit odd in a grown man?
Come, come, my good man.
The gun controls imposed in the Uk were a knee jerk reaction to a very rare incident, it was about trying to grab political favour in the face of this incident. It wasnt based on any proven theories. As to your statement about not giving a “flying fuck” about sportsmen is as crass as you can get. They cannot own handguns and keep them at a club “full stop”, as to it not being important on the scale of things, fine, lets take the same same train of thought about very rare illnesses, it dosnt affect things on a big scale so lets not research or treat those people.
As to believing we dont need to be armed, you may well be right. But lets not forget the most oppressive regimes have allways denied the right of people to defend themselves. An unarmed populace can never dispose of a corrupt or oppressive government, its the first stage of a police state.
That’s crap. You’re telling me that because I own a pump-action shotgun that I bought for the purpose of shooting people? That’s what you are saying. Ya know what I use my pump-action gun for? Trap. I shoot trap with it. One shell at a time. It’s also well suited for upland game, but I haven’t shot pheasant in years. The gun is simply a good compromise solution that can be used effectively for several purposes.
There are millions of pump-aciton shotguns here in the states, but only a vanishingly small percentage of them is ever used to shoot a person. But because it has happened, you think it valid to draw the conclusion that all owners of these guns bought them with the intent to shoot other humans. That’s crap, too.
Anyway, if we stipulate for the moment the prevalance of crime with guns in America, how is it that you feel it ethical or moral to deny law-abiding citizens access to the means to defend themselves—the very means they may find themselves threatened with? Remember, that simply banning guns isn’t gonna make them go away; a ban isn’t a magical panacea. The criminals simply are not gonna meekly hand over their guns to the authorities. To assume so would be unrealistic.
Obsessed, and enthusiatic are hardly synonomous. And what hobbyist, isn’t “enthusiatic” about his hobby? Yeah, some of them to the point of “obsession,” but not the vast majority.
Yes the gun laws were a knee-jerk reaction to an unusual event. That doesn’t automatically mean they’re wrong.
Yes it’s true that at present the laws are inconvenience for people who like to shoot (primarily) pistols, but keep a sense of proportion, it’s not exactly a major inconvenience is it? Nor are people clamouring for the repeal of these laws.
The gun laws aren’t broke. Let’s not fix them.
Forget it, UncleBeer. You’ve seen examples of owlstretchingtime on the boards before, as have I.
They enjoy a pleasure in life they would happily deny others, just because they doesn’t trust their motives, their economic class, or even their race.
They are, quite simply, hypocrites. And there’s no reasoning with them. For hypocrisy is not born of reason. It is born of fear and hate.
Eh?
Where have I said that I would deny anyone anything that I enjoy?
And what the fuck has race or class got to do with this?
Mr Moto - it is time to re-grout your tinfoil hat, the voices are getting through again…(and no, I’m not jealous that they’re only talking to you)
I’ll tell you exactly why and how, owlstretchingtime.
Here in the good ol’ U.S.A., the majority of shotguns sold are pump-action, the very ones you call “scary” and would seek to ban.
They are popular mostly because they are effective for the job, and also economical. Nearly every hunter or sportsman can afford one.
Double guns, the ones you have no issue with, are the most expensive ones. They can run thousands of dollars. Many hunters can’t afford them.
So your proposal would, effectively, make shotgun hunting a rich man’s sport. That has everything to do with class.
Now here’s the thing Mr Moto: The whole point of this thread is about gun control in the UNITED KINGDOM ( I realise that as an American the concept of “not in America” is difficult, but do try to keep up old chap)
You can buy a decent shotgun IN THE UK for a few hundred quid (what us furriners have instead of dollars - we’re funny like that) less second hand.
The reason that pump-action shotguns are forbidden IN THE UNITED KINGDOM is that we perceive them as weapons against people not animals. That’s why we ban them (oh that and the fact that we’re all top-hat wearing aristocrats who live in stately homes and are worried about trouble at t’pit spilling over into armed rebellion).
Yours,
Lord Owl of Putney, race warrior.
A. Let’s say 500 pounds for a decent over/under or side-by-side. Thats over $800 US. For $235 US I can buy a brand new Remington model 870 pump, with replaceable choke tubes and it can shoot 3" mag’s for turkey or 2-3/4" target shells for trap or skeet.
B. Fair enough, we were the ones who introduced the pump to trench warfare in 1917.