# Has the UN been good at nation-building and maintaining peace & stability? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 5, 2003, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-un-been-good-at-nation-building-and-maintaining-peace-stability/173211 "2003-05-05T16:48:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-un-been-good-at-nation-building-and-maintaining-peace-stability/173211/21 "2003-05-06T00:24:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mtgman \* > I’m still waiting on a cite about embezzlement of funds by the PLO/A. We have debated this point elsewhere. Arafat is now phenomenally wealthy, while the Palestinian people are dirt poor. I think it’s clear that he has stolen a great deal of the money donated by the UN and the EU. If you want to provide cites that Arafat didn’t take any money, that’s fine with me. If you want to consider this to be an unproved hypothesis, be my guest. > [@](#): > > I’m also waiting on answers to my questions of how in hell one is going to lay the blame for the situation in the west bank at the feet of the UN when the UN has repeatedly tried to interevne only to have its hands tied by US vetos and Israeli disregard for UN resolutions. Excuses, excuses, excuses. Maybe the UN has a good excuse for not having done well by the West Bank, but those excuses don’t help the poor Palestinian people. If the UN took over post-war Iraq, they might have a good excuse for screwing that up, too. After all, they’d have to deal with all sorts of political problems, including France and Russia lobbying to get their old debts covered and to get oil concessions. However, the Iraqi people will be better off with actual success than with good excuses. I think Coalition leadership is more apt to succeed. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-un-been-good-at-nation-building-and-maintaining-peace-stability/173211/22 "2003-05-06T00:38:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Exhibit E – [UN troops accused of ‘systematic’ rape in Sierra Leone](http://www.prisonplanet.com/news_alert_011703_unsextrade.html) \*\* It’s not your fault that the report you found is unclear. Peacekeeping forces are allegedly responsible for “several” rapes, _not_ “systematic” rape. [Here](http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/sierraleone/sierleon0103-06.htm#P951_204963) is the report that that article is based on. Of course, rape is a crime, but it does not appear that the peacekeepers’ actions rise to the level of war crimes. Are you saying that the peacekeeping efforts in Sierra Leone were a failure? (Cite?) They are widely credited with ending a very brutal war there. Unfortunately, soldiers from every country occasionally commit rapes, but a few bad incidents do not nullify the U.N.’ s accomplishments. > [@](#): > > ]\*Originally posted by sailor \* > Of course, we should remember the US has boycotted the tribunal which is supposed to judge these crimes. Actually, there is no way that the ICC would have jurisdiction, and the U.S. was largely responsible for setting up the Sierra Leone Special Court that will try some war criminals from that war. We should give the U.S. government some credit, though the Court is so underfunded that it is unlikely to do any good. ---
**Author:** ![OliverH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/278dde/32.png) [@OliverH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverH)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-un-been-good-at-nation-building-and-maintaining-peace-stability/173211/23 "2003-05-06T07:25:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*This thread is to take up **coldfire’s** offer [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=181738&pagenumber=2#newpost). The UN’s effectiveness is more a debate than a rant, so I’ve begun it here in GD. I assert that the UN has not been good at nation-building and maintaining peace & stability. > \*\* I assert that you are unaware of the number of attempts by the UN to do so compared to your cites, and about the background of said cites. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Exhibit A is the Srebrenica massacre. > \*\* Inapplicable, since it does not deal with peace and stability in a country, but one specific city. Given that the nations on the Security Council held prime responsibility for this massacre, it is unsuitable for fingerpointing against the UN as a whole. The Security Council declared the area safe. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Exhibit B is the West Bank, ruled by a thuggish tyrrany that stole UN money. A place where terrorists build bombs and plan attacks. The failure to create an infastructure, which could have allowed the Palestinian people to create businesses and become more prosperous. \*\* You are seriously mistaken here. The infrastructure WAS created, by the EU, but was subsequently destroyed by the IDF. As for the ‘thuggish tyrrany that stole UN money’, your ‘tyrant’ was actually elected in elections widely deemed fair -twice. As for terrorists building bombs and planning attacks, it is also the site of massive violations of the Geneva Convention with the support and encouragement of the US. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Exhibit C is the supervision of Iraqi compliance between 1991 and 2002. \*\* Again inapplicable, since it worked admirably until undermined by western powers, and since western powers violated the same ceasefire. ---
**Author:** ![OliverH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/278dde/32.png) [@OliverH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverH)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-un-been-good-at-nation-building-and-maintaining-peace-stability/173211/24 "2003-05-06T07:30:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\* Maybe the UN has a good excuse for not having done well by the West Bank, but those excuses don’t help the poor Palestinian people. > > If the UN took over post-war Iraq, they might have a good excuse for screwing that up, too. After all, they’d have to deal with all sorts of political problems, including France and Russia lobbying to get their old debts covered and to get oil concessions. However, the Iraqi people will be better off with actual success than with good excuses. I think Coalition leadership is more apt to succeed. \*\* Except, of course, that the track record of said coalition forces is even worse than that of the UN, for whose handful of lacks of successes, which you tear out of context of the number of successes, they are chiefly responsible. It is really telling that you make the UN responsible for said coalition sabotaging its efforts. Where was the coalition in East Timor? How much did the US care about Cambodia? Sorry, man, but you’re really ridiculous in your attempts to sling mud at the UN. No one doubts that the UN failed in some cases, but your examples show pure and unfettered ignorance, and you reveal yourself to be an apologist for sabotage, treaty violations and massive abuse of human rights of the worst kind. ---
**Author:** ![OliverH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/278dde/32.png) [@OliverH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverH)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-un-been-good-at-nation-building-and-maintaining-peace-stability/173211/25 "2003-05-06T07:32:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\*The apt phrase that’s come to the fore only this week (here) is, ’America does the cooking and Europe does the washing up’ – which is another way of saying, the US makes sure whichever country is safely within it’s ‘sphere of influence’, before leaving the peacekeeping to others - not that Europe could organise a joint exercise at this point in time, or before, if we recall the Balkans. > > Not terribly generous to non-European peacekeepers (Africans, most obviously) but the phrase itself is not unreasonable, IMHO. \*\* Methinks you are not quite up to date. The EU has taken over Macdeonian peacekeeping. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-un-been-good-at-nation-building-and-maintaining-peace-stability/173211/26 "2003-05-06T07:59:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spiny Norman \* > \*\*- when (for instance) Cyprus doesn’t boil over, it may be due to highly efficient UN peacekeeping or it may be that none of the locals really care enough to go pick a fight. So is Cyprus a UN success or just a really, really easy task ? Oh they care, as I can attest from having lived there for a bit, they do care. Had a Greek Cyproit point a gun at me over the Green Line – highly unpleasant moment. I might add in re the PA example, since it was the CIA and USG generally that backed the PA security forces and took on resp. for training, their failure is an obvious black mark against the US (ahem ‘coalition’) rebuilding a secure country. By december standards. In re Arafat’s wealth (signif, but not phenomenal), december likes to imply it seems to have come post-peace accords. I hope he has substantive support. I do not expect it to be the case, I rather expect more inuendo. As for december’s opportunistic and I will say clearly highly hypocritical concern for the poor folks in the Territories, one would think that the poverty should rather be attributed to the sovereign entity which controlled PA area external commercial relations. That would not be the UN, which had some development programs. That would be Israel. While Israel had legit reasons for many (not all but many) security measures, they have both pre-2000 and esp. post-2000 strangled Palestinian commerce. Of course, that is december’s ridiculous standard is not really relevant, but if we’re going to play the game, let’s play a level playing field. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-un-been-good-at-nation-building-and-maintaining-peace-stability/173211/27 "2003-05-06T08:03:43Z")
To repeat a reference in the originating Pit Thread: By the way in regards to december’s characterization of UN peacekeeping capacity and the Bosnia debacle (in which as I recall people like december did not want to get involved at all at the time) I direct readers to this helpful resource center: [http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/peacekpg/index.htm](http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/peacekpg/index.htm) THere is a wealth of both positive and negative info avail here, it should help for an informed discussion and not one of ad hoc assertions. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-un-been-good-at-nation-building-and-maintaining-peace-stability/173211/28 "2003-05-06T13:02:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > In re Arafat’s wealth (signif, but not phenomenal), december likes to imply it seems to have come post-peace accords. I hope he has substantive support. One estimate of Arafat’s wealth is that $1.3 Billion is a fraction of it. Other estimates are [$10 Billion and $11 Billion](http://pub169.ezboard.com/ftheglobalpoliticsandmilitaryforumfrm5.showMessage?topicID=610.topic). No doubt you’re very well-paid, **Collounsbury** , but those figures are more than just “significant” for the rest of us. 😉 > [@](#): > > August 14, 2002 – JERUSALEM - Yasser Arafat has secretly amassed at least $1.3 billion in “personal assets,” Israel’s chief of military intelligence said yesterday. > > Maj. Gen. Aharon Zeevi’s comments were based on financial documents and other evidence confiscated earlier this year from the PLO chairman’s headquarters in Ramallah and other Palestinian Authority offices in the West Bank… > > But a high-ranking Israeli official said the confirmed $1.3 billion is believed to be only a fraction of Arafat’s true holdings. > > **A 1994 British intelligence report allegedly put the figure at more than $10 billion. Recently, a knowledgeable Israeli source put the figure at $11 billion** … > > - Arafat’s wealth is held in bank accounts, real estate and other assets that can easily be made liquid. > > - The bank accounts are spread about in Europe, Arab countries, the Far East - and even the United States - under different companies controlled by Arafat. > > - Arafat has made some of his top deputies, including Abu Ala, Abu Mazen and Nabil Shaath, very rich. > > “Arafat took care of his closest aides. Some of them have tens of millions of dollars,” one source said. > > Arafat’s wife Suha, who has been living in Paris during the Palestinian uprising, is believed to control some of his hidden assets… > > The intricate network of numbered bank accounts and hidden assets is believed to be so complex that only Arafat, Rashid and one or two other Palestinians know their extent. > > The main source of Arafat’s wealth is believed to be the approximately $6 billion contributed by the United States, Japan and European countries as financial aid to the authority from 1993 to 2000, sources said… > > **"The Palestinian people’s money is Arafat’s personal money," a high-ranking Israeli official said. "That’s the way he treats it. Everything belongs to him."** > > Well before he returned to the Gaza Strip and West Bank as president in 1994, Arafat was receiving huge contributions from Saudi Arabia, Iraq and the oil sheikdoms of the Persian Gulf to finance the PLO. > > In addition to aid from governments, Arafat’s inner circle is believed to have received millions of dollars in business graft based on imports of valued goods. > > “The kickbacks work this way,” a top Israeli official said: > > “A group of Palestinians gets a monopoly on gasoline or cigarettes or cement or something. The Palestinian consumer then pays an inflated price for his gas, because the price includes a special fee that goes in the hands of Arafat’s people.” Note that the money donated by the US (and IIRC Japan) went via a UN agency. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-un-been-good-at-nation-building-and-maintaining-peace-stability/173211/29 "2003-05-06T13:29:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > One estimate of Arafat’s wealth is that $1.3 Billion is a fraction of it. One estimate by an Israel intel source. I discount based on that very fact. I am more familiar with the lower $100-300 mill. range. > [@](#): > > No doubt you’re very well-paid, **Collounsbury** , but those figures are more than just “significant” for the rest of us. ;)Note that the money donated by the US (and IIRC Japan) went via a UN agency. Some of the monies have gone through the UN, the CIA and related stuff certainly did not my dear little december, so please try again. ---
**Author:** ![Summertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Summertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Summertime)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-un-been-good-at-nation-building-and-maintaining-peace-stability/173211/30 "2003-05-06T14:11:53Z")
Someone once told me that “proof” of the U.N. being not only ineffective, but **bad** is Katanga. What is Katanga? What happened? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-un-been-good-at-nation-building-and-maintaining-peace-stability/173211/31 "2003-05-06T14:20:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Summertime \* > \*\*What is Katanga? What happened? \*\* I cannot vouch for this site, but here’s one [version](http://www.seidata.com/~neusys/colm0036.html). > [@](#): > > The tragedy of Katanga started on June 30, 1960 when Belgium granted independence to its former province of the Congo. Leadership of the new nation fell to Moscow-sponsored terrorist Patrice Lumumba. Lumumba was so highly regarded by Soviet dictator Khrushchev that he renamed the Moscow “Peoples Friendship University” the “Patrice Lumumba Friendship University” upon Lumumba’s death. In a directive to the heads of the Congolese provinces, Lumumba wrote that they should use “terrorism, essential to subdue the population.” His directive was carried out enthusiastically. > > In order to avoid the nightmare that attended Communist rule in the Congo, the province of Katanga declared its independence. Its president, the Christian, pro-American Moise Tshombe, announced that “we are seceding from chaos.” Tshombe asked Belgium to send military officers to recruit and train a Katangese army to restore order in Katanga. Lumumba and his successor, Cyrille Adoula, asked for and got the aid of United Nations “peacekeepers” to force Katanga back under Congolese rule. It took two years of UN warmaking to accomplish this goal. > > The troops transported to Katanga using US Air Force aircraft came from Ireland, Sweden, Italy, Ethiopia, and India. According to numerous eyewitness accounts, the troops of the UN’s Operation Morthor carried on one of the most brutal military campaigns of our century. In their 1962 report, 46 Angry Men, the 46 civilian doctors of Elizabethville, Katanga denounced the atrocities carried out by UN troops. > > According to the doctors, the UN consistently bombed, machine-gunned, and looted civilian targets: hospitals, ambulances, churches, schools, homes, cars. “Over ninety percent of the buildings bombed and shelled by the United Nations were strictly civilian structures with no military value,” said the doctors’ report. After protesting the UN attacks on ambulances, Mr. Georges Olivet of the Swiss Red Cross was murdered by UN troops as he traveled in a Red Cross ambulance. > > Worse yet, if possible, was the behavior of Congolese troops supplied and transported by the UN to invade Katanga from the north. Reports of cannibalism, massacre of missionaries and other civilians, and other atrocities were rife. The passage of these UN allies left in its wake complete anarchy in place of the peace and prosperity that had formerly prevailed in that region. > > Before and during the two-year UN war against Katanga, the UN insisted that its troops had orders not to interfere with the internal affairs of the Congo or Katanga. Globalists in the Kennedy administration cooperated fully with this propaganda. The whole operation was sold to the American people as necessary to prevent the Congo from “going Communist.” ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-un-been-good-at-nation-building-and-maintaining-peace-stability/173211/32 "2003-05-06T14:37:36Z")
The key to judging the reliabiity of the above … screed I think is the phrase “Moscow inspired terrorist.” Patrice Lumumba may not have been wonderful but “Moscow inspired terrorist” is mere ranting. Now why the UN should get hte blame for a US-French-Belgian intervention under UN cover to overthrow someone they linked to “Moscow” is beyond me. It wasn’t, after all, the UN that selected Mobutu in the end. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-un-been-good-at-nation-building-and-maintaining-peace-stability/173211/33 "2003-05-06T15:20:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by OliverH \* > Except, of course, that the track record of said coalition forces is even worse than that of the UN, for whose handful of lacks of successes, which you tear out of context of the number of successes, they are chiefly responsible. It is really telling that you make the UN responsible for said coalition sabotaging its efforts. Rule number one in responding to a stupid OP is “do not make a stupid response.” You have violated that rule, **OliverH.** Kindly provide **one** example, except for Iraq, where the “coalition” sabotaged UN peace-keeping/nation-building efforts. > [@](#): > > Where was the coalition in East Timor? How much did the US care about Cambodia? The “coalition” got/allowed the UN to do the job. Remember, the UN can do nothing without the permission/approval of the US and UK. > [@](#): > > Sorry, man, but you’re really ridiculous in your attempts to sling mud at the UN. No one doubts that the UN failed in some cases, but your examples show pure and unfettered ignorance, Yes, it does. However, **december,** sadly, did better than you. He mischaracterized actual events. You just made stuff up. Sua ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-un-been-good-at-nation-building-and-maintaining-peace-stability/173211/34 "2003-05-06T15:44:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Exhibit C is the supervision of Iraqi compliance between 1991 and 2002. \*\* **december** , even by your standards… Getting a proper count gets bogged down in technical details, but it’s not very much off to say that UNSCOM supervised or verified the destruction of 48 missiles, 20 transport or launch vehicles, 50 fixed launch sites, 70 bio/chem warheads, 160 conventional warheads. Oh, and about 40000 filled and unfilled chemical munitions of different types, 600 tons weaponized & bulk chemical weapons agents, 4000 tons of precursor chemicals and just under 1000 pieces of equipment deemed critical for the production of chemical weapons. Not counting the 12 unfilled chemical warheads and the Al Samoud missiles destroyed under UNMOVIC supervision in 2003. All of the above is nasty shit, all of it is no more. If this is a failure by your standards, I’d love to hear your assessment of the Coalition’s performance re WMD so far. Seeing as they’ve found and destroyed - well - diddly-squat, they’ve got a bit of catching up to do, wouldn’t you say ? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-un-been-good-at-nation-building-and-maintaining-peace-stability/173211/35 "2003-05-06T15:48:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shayna \* > If this is a failure by your standards, I’d love to hear your assessment of the Coalition’s performance re WMD so far. Seeing as they’ve found and destroyed - well - diddly-squat, they’ve got a bit of catching up to do, wouldn’t you say ? The UN failed to get the government of Iraq to stop their development of WMDs. The Coalition succeeded in this endeavor. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-un-been-good-at-nation-building-and-maintaining-peace-stability/173211/36 "2003-05-06T15:51:20Z")
“The UN failed to get the government of Iraq to stop their development of WMDs.” The Coalition succeeded in this endeavor. My magic necklace has stopped pink elefants from appearing this whole day. (Always wanted to do a magic necklace post) ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-un-been-good-at-nation-building-and-maintaining-peace-stability/173211/37 "2003-05-06T15:52:21Z")
- I posted the above under **Shayna’s** ID, but I am me, OK ? ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-un-been-good-at-nation-building-and-maintaining-peace-stability/173211/38 "2003-05-06T15:58:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*The UN failed to get the government of Iraq to stop their development of WMDs. > The Coalition succeeded in this endeavor. \*\* Exactly what WMD production the coalition managed to stop remains to be seen, doesn’t it ? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-un-been-good-at-nation-building-and-maintaining-peace-stability/173211/39 "2003-05-06T16:19:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*The UN failed to get the government of Iraq to stop their development of WMDs. > The Coalition succeeded in this endeavor. \*\* Well see my dear december that is not at all clear as those pesky little boys - let us refer to them by the more accurate NBC designation (Nuclear, Biological, Chemical) - have yet to show up in large amounts. Let me reproduce this (from [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=179832&pagenumber=4](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=179832&pagenumber=4)): Doubts grow over Iraq ‘smoking gun’ The Financial Times 2 May 2003 Quoted in extenso as this is subscription based: > [@](#): > > Saddam Hussein appears to have shut down or destroyed large parts of his unconventional weapons programmes before the war in Iraq, a senior Bush administration official who has been closely involved in the quest to purge Iraq of weapons of mass destruction said this week. > > The official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said he would be “amazed if we found weapons-grade plutonium or uranium” and it was unlikely large volumes of biological or chemical material would be discovered. He suggested that the sanctions and UN inspections probably prompted Mr Hussein to dispose of much of his stockpile. > > “The biological weapons stuff is easy to destroy,” he said, adding that chemical agents might have been dumped in the desert. The disclosure will fuel criticism in Britain - and particularly among Tony Blair’s backbenchers - about the failure to unearth a “smoking gun”. The prime minister made the need to find and destroy Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction the central justification for war. > > President George W. Bush also repeatedly justified the use of force against Iraq by arguing that Mr Hussein’s deadly weapons could threaten its neighbours and fall into the hands of terrorists who might strike the US. The failure so far to find evidence of an Iraqi weapons programme has led to speculation that no such programme existed. The article continues to note the development of expectations management in light of apparently reduced confidence. > [@](#): > > However, the senior administration official insisted the US never expected to find a huge arsenal. He said the US was more concerned by Mr Hussein’s team of 1,000 scientists, whom he termed “nuclear mujahadeen”. These scientists, he argued, could have restarted Iraq’s weapons programme once the crisis passed. A primary concern was dual-use “factories and breweries” which could be converted into weapons plants but were allowed under UN sanctions. I find the first sentence amusing. I may as well include this in re the Arafat accusations: “Behind the myth” PHIL REEVES The Independent - United Kingdom; Jun 26, 2002 > [@](#): > > … trouble had been brewing for a long time. For months before the outbreak of the new intifada, Palestinians had been increasingly critical of Arafat’s failure to achieve results in peace-making with Israel and of the dire state of Palestinian government. > > Ever since he assumed power as the chairman of the Palestinian Authority in 1994, Arafat’s rule had been one of total chaos. His ministries were abysmally inefficient, mired by nepotism, over-manning and general cronyism. He has many political qualities, … \*\*ut running government is not among his skills. > > Money has been squandered on an operatic scale in the pockets of land that are autonomously ruled by the Palestinian Authority under the 1993 Oslo agreements - the main towns of the West Bank, on 20 per cent of the territory, and 60 per cent of Gaza. Meanwhile, Arafat’s security apparatus became a network of private armies, vying with each other for primacy. **interjection: US backed, CIA trained in part funded** > > Democracy was always only a word to be bandied in front of the cameras. Those who opposed his decision to embark on the road to statehood were arrested by his _CIA-trained police._ And those who dared to suggest his government was autocratic and venal were threatened, and even jailed. > **emphasis added** > > … > > Crucial to Arafat’s survival has been his ability to control the PA chequebook personally, dispensing funds and - until the Israelis locked up the Palestinian population after the start of their uprising - lucrative business contracts with Israel as a means of reinforcing his own powerbase. **Israel and the US tacitly endorsed this, believing it helped shore up a compliant Palestinian leadership.** Now, with the collapse of Oslo and the renewed explosion of violence, both are leading the chorus of allegations of corruption and demands for reform. > **emphasis added** > **interjection: of course this is all now the EU and the UN’s fault** > > The corruption sprang up almost the moment Arafat returned in 1994 from exile in Tunis to the Gaza Strip to take control of the newly created Palestinian Authority. … Within months of arriving, however, his senior PLO colleagues were busy building themselves luxury villas on the strip’s sand dunes, a blow to the feelings of the hundreds of thousands of refugees who had lived there in squalor and poverty during the occupation. > > _Yet Arafat himself, although he uses corruption as a tool to bind people closer to him, has shown little sign of interest in personal wealth since his days in Kuwait as a young man, the founder of the Fatah organisation, when he had a fondness for fast cars and fine clothes. He is personally frugal, neither smoking nor drinking. Those Israelis, including Ariel Sharon, who have heartily wished him dead over the years can take little comfort from his modest lifestyle which, though at times a trifle odd (he pours tea over his cornflakes and spoons Yemeni honey into his tea), are decidedly healthy. The only dash of exotica emerged in 1990, when, out of the blue, he married a tall, green-eyed blonde Christian 30 years his junior; Suha Tawil, who had worked as his assistant. But she removed herself to the quieter climes of Paris many months ago._ > **interjection: thus my discounting the rather more lurid claims advanced do opportunistically by Israeli intelligence well known for its black ops** > > Arafat is terrible at delegating, hugging power close to himself and his coterie of favoured aides. Within the PLO there are a number of articulate, young, highly intelligent and educated figures who have long advocated internal reforms and democratisation. They make far more effective advocates of the Palestinian cause than the ranting ministers and grisly security chiefs whom Arafat has allowed to appear on the airwaves. But, until recently, Arafat kept these younger figures in the shadows. Actually a much longer and more interesting article, but this serves to give context for december’s relentless smear campaign. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2003, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-un-been-good-at-nation-building-and-maintaining-peace-stability/173211/40 "2003-05-06T16:22:38Z")
Oh rotted, I meant to preview: there should be a “[b’]” at hte start of that long bolded section. Forgot the code issue. May as well also add that I am sure some NBC will show up, but as I have maintained, this was nothing but theater deterence weapons and not the bugaboo sold to the gullible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-un-been-good-at-nation-building-and-maintaining-peace-stability/173211.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-un-been-good-at-nation-building-and-maintaining-peace-stability/173211.md?page=3)