# Has the US Armed Forces ever come close to mutiny against their Commender-In\_Chief? Could it happen? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 10, 2020, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-armed-forces-ever-come-close-to-mutiny-against-their-commender-in_chief-could-it-happen/853522 "2020-05-10T06:23:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tatterdemalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2020, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-armed-forces-ever-come-close-to-mutiny-against-their-commender-in_chief-could-it-happen/853522/21 "2020-05-11T19:19:31Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > The Merchant Marine is not a separate branch. In war it acts as an auxiliary to the Navy. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So does the Coast Guard. We preferred to look at it the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2020, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-armed-forces-ever-come-close-to-mutiny-against-their-commender-in_chief-could-it-happen/853522/22 "2020-05-11T20:32:25Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > Would you consider the rebels in the Whiskey Rebellion to be “US Armed Forces”? They were militia forces and veterans, but the US standing army at that time was quite small, so they were the typical armed force of their time. > [Whiskey Rebellion - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion) > I believe that if you looked at a list of current existing countries, and then ticked off the ones that have had military coups d’etat, it’s a majority of those countries. The detailed answer would require speculation that best belongs in the Great Debates forum. However, the basic answer to the basic question is yes. Mutiny against the CinC has no meaning unless you use it in the context of a segment of the standing army officers attempting a coup. The Whiskey Rebellion doesn’t come close, nor do any of the other suggestions in the thread. Could it happen here in the U.S.? In the sense that anything can happen, yes. In the sense of whether it is even remotely plausible, no. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2020, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-armed-forces-ever-come-close-to-mutiny-against-their-commender-in_chief-could-it-happen/853522/23 "2020-05-11T20:42:00Z")
> [@davidmich](#): > > Could it happen? No. Our oath was to the Constitution. Not to a General, or even a President for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-armed-forces-ever-come-close-to-mutiny-against-their-commender-in_chief-could-it-happen/853522/24 "2020-05-13T17:10:53Z")
Two other incidents of note, both unfortunately resulting from poor treatment of black troops: > **[Brownsville affair](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownsville_affair)** > > The Brownsville affair, or the Brownsville raid, was an incident of racial discrimination that occurred in 1906 in the southwestern United States due to resentment by white residents of Brownsville, Texas, of the Buffalo Soldiers, black soldiers in a segregated unit stationed at nearby Fort Brown. When a white bartender was killed and a white police officer wounded by gunshots one night, townspeople accused the members of the African-American 25th Infantry Regiment. Although their commanders sa... > **[Port Chicago disaster](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Chicago_disaster)** > > The Port Chicago disaster was a deadly munitions explosion of the ship SS E. A. Bryan that occurred on July 17, 1944, at the Port Chicago Naval Magazine in Port Chicago, California, United States. Munitions detonated while being loaded onto a cargo vessel bound for the Pacific Theater of Operations, killing 320 sailors and civilians and injuring 390 others. Approximately two-thirds of the dead and injured were enlisted African American sailors. > A month later, unsafe conditions inspired hundre... ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-armed-forces-ever-come-close-to-mutiny-against-their-commender-in_chief-could-it-happen/853522/25 "2020-05-13T18:28:59Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Mutiny against the CinC has no meaning unless you use it in the context of a segment of the standing army officers attempting a coup. The Whiskey Rebellion doesn’t come close, nor do any of the other suggestions in the thread. You don’t feel the Newburgh conspiracy was an attempted coup? ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-armed-forces-ever-come-close-to-mutiny-against-their-commender-in_chief-could-it-happen/853522/26 "2020-05-13T18:37:10Z")
Coast guard used to be part of dept. of Transportation in peace time. Now after 9/11 it’s part of Dept. of Homeland security during peace but can be transferred to the Navy at any time. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-armed-forces-ever-come-close-to-mutiny-against-their-commender-in_chief-could-it-happen/853522/27 "2020-05-13T19:08:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You don’t feel the Newburgh conspiracy was an attempted coup? It was more like a discussion of an attempted coup. Even if you dismiss the fact that the U.S. didn’t exist at the time and there was no CinC, which would otherwise disqualify it out of hand, the question of whether the coup ever came “close” (OP’s word) needs to be answered. The fact that it was easily pushed aside and that no overt action was taken beyond the mailing of two anonymous letters says to me that it was more grumbling than a serious revolution. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-armed-forces-ever-come-close-to-mutiny-against-their-commender-in_chief-could-it-happen/853522/28 "2020-05-13T22:47:22Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > No. Our oath was to the Constitution. Not to a General, or even a President for that matter. But I know that some of my relatives have been fairly unhappy about the behavior of the President in the past (where the President sought to demand personal loyalty), and if push came to shove might have supported the constitution rather than the President. So then the question would be: “would the commander-in-chief ever come close to declaring a dictatorship?”. Which is a very political question that I don’t want anybody to try to answer in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-armed-forces-ever-come-close-to-mutiny-against-their-commender-in_chief-could-it-happen/853522/29 "2020-05-14T00:35:43Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > No. Our oath was to the Constitution. Not to a General, or even a President for that matter. Now, you see, this sort of answer isn’t very useful, because if you’re contemplating mutiny, then oaths really don’t matter much, do they? When it gets to the point of debating your personal loyalty to a General, or a President, versus your loyalty to an oath, well, a lot of people will decide to go with the personal loyalty. That this hasn’t happened _yet_ doesn’t mean it can’t happen. Even being able to ask the question opens up the possibility of either answer. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-armed-forces-ever-come-close-to-mutiny-against-their-commender-in_chief-could-it-happen/853522/30 "2020-05-14T04:24:16Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > …Even if you dismiss the fact that the U.S. didn’t exist at the time and there was no CinC… The U.S. was declared to be a nation in 1776, seven years earlier, and Washington had been named CINC by Congress the year before that. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-armed-forces-ever-come-close-to-mutiny-against-their-commender-in_chief-could-it-happen/853522/31 "2020-05-14T14:27:44Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Now, you see, this sort of answer isn’t very useful, because if you’re contemplating mutiny, then oaths really don’t matter much, do they? > > When it gets to the point of debating your personal loyalty to a General, or a President, versus your loyalty to an oath, well, a lot of people will decide to go with the personal loyalty. That this hasn’t happened _yet_ doesn’t mean it can’t happen. Even being able to ask the question opens up the possibility of either answer. I find it unlikely to the point of “not going to happen” that a lot of people would go with personal loyalty to a General if he/she stated “Let’s overthrow the President” ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-armed-forces-ever-come-close-to-mutiny-against-their-commender-in_chief-could-it-happen/853522/32 "2020-05-14T16:35:23Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > The U.S. was declared to be a nation in 1776, seven years earlier, and Washington had been named CINC by Congress the year before that. And yet, we date the start of the United States of America from 1789. And Washington is considered our first president despite all those all trick questions making him the [ninth president](https://www.historyonthenet.com/106-washington-wasnt-the-1st-president-he-was-the-9th) because he was preceded by eight Presidents of the United States in Congress Assembled. The modern meaning of Commander-in-Chief coincides with being the President of the United States of America, a non-member of the military symbolizing civilian control over the armed forces. It cannot be back-assigned to 1783 under the poor, misbegotten Articles of Confederation, which provided for no President as we understand the position today and whose CinC was a purely military title. I must also raise the question that if the “U.S. was declared to be a nation in 1776” as you say, how it is that the AoC didn’t come into being until 1781? The fact behind my words is that, for every purpose I can think of, the U.S.A. is considered to have formed on March 4, 1789 and every history and precedent starts there. The years 1776-1789 are legally “without form, and void” to quote anonymous. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-armed-forces-ever-come-close-to-mutiny-against-their-commender-in_chief-could-it-happen/853522/33 "2020-05-14T16:52:14Z")
I’ve never heard anyone consider the start of “the United States of America” to be any date other than 4 July 1776. Washington was our first President because before that, we didn’t have a President (presidents of Congress, yes, but not a President of the nation). ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-armed-forces-ever-come-close-to-mutiny-against-their-commender-in_chief-could-it-happen/853522/34 "2020-05-14T18:18:25Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The Space Force is not considered an armed force or a military service but it is a branch of the military. Try again. From the first line of the US Space Force fact sheet on their website: > [@](#): > > The U.S. Space Force (USSF) is a new branch of the Armed Forces The “Mission” paragraph: > [@](#): > > The USSF is a military service that organizes, trains, and equips space forces in order to protect U.S. and allied interests in space and to provide space capabilities to the joint force. USSF responsibilities include developing military space professionals, acquiring military space systems, maturing the military doctrine for space power, and organizing space forces to present to our Combatant Commands. I’d say that “organizing space forces to present to our Combatant Commands” points out pretty clearly that it’s both military and armed, or at least is intended to be. Along with that, US Space Command (USSPACECOM) is one of the eleven Unified Combatant Commands (along with USCENTCOM, USSTRATCOM and USSSOCOM, which you may have heard of), and is headed by the commanding general of the Space Force. All signs point toward it being, or intended to be a real honest to God armed service along the lines of the Air Force, Army, Marines or Navy. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-armed-forces-ever-come-close-to-mutiny-against-their-commender-in_chief-could-it-happen/853522/35 "2020-05-14T18:32:45Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Try again. From the first line of the US Space Force fact sheet on their website: > > The “Mission” paragraph: > > I’d say that “organizing space forces to present to our Combatant Commands” points out pretty clearly that it’s both military and armed, or at least is intended to be. > > Along with that, US Space Command (USSPACECOM) is one of the eleven Unified Combatant Commands (along with USCENTCOM, USSTRATCOM and USSSOCOM, which you may have heard of), and is headed by the commanding general of the Space Force. > > All signs point toward it being, or intended to be a real honest to God armed service along the lines of the Air Force, Army, Marines or Navy. Good luck getting anyone who wants to be a real-life “Space Cadet”. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-armed-forces-ever-come-close-to-mutiny-against-their-commender-in_chief-could-it-happen/853522/36 "2020-05-14T21:37:43Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Good luck getting anyone who wants to be a real-life “Space Cadet”. > 😃 You say that… but the Air Force Academy just graduated 86 of them. > ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-armed-forces-ever-come-close-to-mutiny-against-their-commender-in_chief-could-it-happen/853522/37 "2020-05-14T21:41:19Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > And yet, we date the start of the United States of America from 1789. I have never in my life heard of it being dated from any year other than 1776. If by “we” you mean you, well, that’s your opinion, but it would appear everyone else disagrees, including the government of the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-armed-forces-ever-come-close-to-mutiny-against-their-commender-in_chief-could-it-happen/853522/38 "2020-05-14T22:42:27Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Try again. From the first line of the US Space Force fact sheet on their website: > > The “Mission” paragraph: > > I’d say that “organizing space forces to present to our Combatant Commands” points out pretty clearly that it’s both military and armed, or at least is intended to be. I was quoting a DoD website. If the Space Force website says something else, they need to talk to one another and settle on one definition. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-armed-forces-ever-come-close-to-mutiny-against-their-commender-in_chief-could-it-happen/853522/39 "2020-05-14T22:49:39Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I have never in my life heard of it being dated from any year other than 1776. If by “we” you mean you, well, that’s your opinion, but it would appear everyone else disagrees, including the government of the United States. As I said earlier, the years before 1789 have no legal force. Obviously, American history predates the establishment of the formal country we now recognize, but the institutions they created have no continuity with the present. The DoI is not a legal document, no matter what its value is as a historical document. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-armed-forces-ever-come-close-to-mutiny-against-their-commender-in_chief-could-it-happen/853522/40 "2020-05-14T22:50:29Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > And yet, we date the start of the United States of America from 1789. Then why did we celebrate the Bicentennial in 1976?:dubious: > [@](#): > > In Congress, July 4, 1776. > The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America, > [@](#): > > We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; Absolutely no one dates the start of the United States from 1789. That’s merely the date of the ratification of the second US Constitution. The first, the Articles of Confederation, was approved by the Second Continental Congress in 1777. The articles were ratified and came into effect in 1781. Article 1 of the Articles of Confederation: > [@](#): > > Article I. The Stile of this confederacy shall be, “The United States of America.” The country itself recognizes its foundation as July 4, 1776. I suppose if you wanted to quibble you could say 1777 or 1781, but certainly not 1789. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-armed-forces-ever-come-close-to-mutiny-against-their-commender-in_chief-could-it-happen/853522.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-armed-forces-ever-come-close-to-mutiny-against-their-commender-in_chief-could-it-happen/853522.md?page=3)