# Has the US ever committed perfidy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2007, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-ever-committed-perfidy/394093 "2007-02-28T22:59:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-ever-committed-perfidy/394093/1 "2007-02-28T22:59:55Z")
Has the United States military, or any military commander thereof, ever been convicted of perfidy? If so, I’d be interested in hearing the details. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-ever-committed-perfidy/394093/2 "2007-02-28T23:03:31Z")
Committed? Many times, especially during the Indian wars. Convicted of? Doubtful. Winners rarely courtmartial their own. ---
**Author:** ![bonitahi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7993a0/32.png) [@bonitahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonitahi)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-ever-committed-perfidy/394093/3 "2007-02-28T23:05:19Z")
This administration, and Commander in Chief, have committed perfidy, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-ever-committed-perfidy/394093/4 "2007-02-28T23:39:06Z")
While there have been countless cases of mopery, I cannot recall a case of perfidy. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2007, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-ever-committed-perfidy/394093/5 "2007-03-01T00:26:55Z")
I wouldn’t be surprised if it had happened, but I don’t know of any prosecutions or convictions. ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2007, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-ever-committed-perfidy/394093/6 "2007-03-01T01:35:15Z")
per·fi·dy /ˈpɜrfɪdi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pur-fi-dee] –noun, plural -dies. 1. deliberate breach of faith or trust; faithlessness; treachery: perfidy that goes unpunished. 2. an act or instance of faithlessness or treachery. [Origin: 1585–95; \< L perfidia faithlessness, equiv. to perfid(us) faithless, lit., through (i.e., beyond the limits of) faith (per- per- + fid(és) faith + -us adj. suffix) + -ia -y3] —Synonyms See disloyalty. ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2007, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-ever-committed-perfidy/394093/7 "2007-03-01T01:40:50Z")
[QUOTE=Shagnasty] While there have been countless cases of mopery, I cannot recall a case of perfidy. [/QUOTE] I find it interesting that [some jurisdictions](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mopery) may expand on that to a felony, as in “aggrevated mopery, with an intent to creep”. Or worse, “accessory to jaywalking, with aggrevated mopery”. Tripler Yup. “Mopery”: I hear Eeyore is the Defense Counsel on this one. ---
**Author:** ![anson2995](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@anson2995](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anson2995)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2007, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-ever-committed-perfidy/394093/8 "2007-03-01T02:27:06Z")
Respectfully, **vetbridge’s** definition has no corrleation to what the OP is asking, I don’t think. In a military sense, perfidy means having soldiers pose as civilians, wearing the enemy’s uniform, or pretending to surrender as a ruse to an attack. These sorts of things have long been regarded as a violation of the rules of war, and are codified in the Geneva convention. See [wikipedia’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfidy) entry on the subject. And again, with all due respect to **bonitahi** , the claim that the Bush administration has committed perfidy might be true in the generic sense of the word, but certainly not in a military context. On the contrary, perfidy is a defining trait of most guerrila movements, and certainly it has been committed repeatedly by the insurgents in Iraq. To the OP’s question, I don’t believe any US military commander has ever been charged with perfidy. There are certainly examples of CIA sponsored “false flag” missions, but that’s not military per se. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2007, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-ever-committed-perfidy/394093/9 "2007-03-01T02:47:28Z")
While the OP may be answered with strictly factual answers, I think this one is better suited to Great Debates. **samclem** GQ moderator ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2007, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-ever-committed-perfidy/394093/10 "2007-03-01T07:08:21Z")
A great uncle of mine was brought before a court martial for hooliganism and scalawaggery. But he cut a deal, pled guilty to tomfoolery and got off with a fine. ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2007, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-ever-committed-perfidy/394093/11 "2007-03-01T16:18:53Z")
[QUOTE=anson2995] Respectfully, **vetbridge’s** definition has no corrleation to what the OP is asking, I don’t think. In a military sense, perfidy means having soldiers pose as civilians, wearing the enemy’s uniform, or pretending to surrender as a ruse to an attack. These sorts of things have long been regarded as a violation of the rules of war, and are codified in the Geneva convention. See [wikipedia’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfidy) entry on the subject. [/QUOTE] Thank you. I had no idea what the term meant other than the dictionary definition. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2007, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-ever-committed-perfidy/394093/12 "2007-03-01T16:50:26Z")
I think you could claim that the US (and the rest of the Nuclear Club) have been pretty perfidious when it comes to upholding their obligations under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty: > [@](#): > > Each of the Parties to the Treaty undertakes to pursue negotiations in good faith on effective measures relating to cessation of the nuclear arms race at an early date and to nuclear disarmament, and on **a Treaty on general and complete disarmament under strict and effective international control.** ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2007, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-ever-committed-perfidy/394093/13 "2007-03-01T17:20:29Z")
There’s one case of perfidy that’s celebrated and can be found on every bottle of Snapple–the Boston Tea Party. I know, I know, the Sons of Liberty weren’t a government and weren’t posing as real Indians either, but it’s the only open case of perfidy I can think of that everybody knows about. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-ever-committed-perfidy/394093/14 "2007-03-02T02:18:57Z")
An argument could be raised that we gave Saddam a tacit OK to go into Kuwait. It has been said that through diplomatic channels it was said we would not interfere. After Iraq1 it has been said that we told the Kurds we would do something to help them if they fought against the Saddam regime. They did and we did not. Both perfidious. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-ever-committed-perfidy/394093/15 "2007-03-02T02:19:36Z")
No, that would be Albion. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-ever-committed-perfidy/394093/16 "2007-03-02T03:13:29Z")
Benedict Arnold was a perfidious wretch. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-ever-committed-perfidy/394093/17 "2007-03-02T03:50:50Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] Committed? Many times, especially during the Indian wars. Convicted of? Doubtful. Winners rarely courtmartial their own. [/QUOTE] The last sentence is certainly of the “paint with a broad brush” school, isn’t it? Unless, of course, you’d care to explain why there were courts-martial in just about every war we fought. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-ever-committed-perfidy/394093/18 "2007-03-02T04:20:12Z")
[QUOTE=anson2995] Respectfully, **vetbridge’s** definition has no corrleation to what the OP is asking, I don’t think. In a military sense, perfidy means having soldiers pose as civilians, wearing the enemy’s uniform, or pretending to surrender as a ruse to an attack. These sorts of things have long been regarded as a violation of the rules of war, and are codified in the Geneva convention. See [wikipedia’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfidy) entry on the subject. [/QUOTE] By this definition, the [Andrews Raid](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrews_Raid), or the Great Locomotive Chase, during the Civil War might qualify. US soldiers out of uniform captured a Confederate train and used it to sabotoge a rail line. James Andrews, a civilian, was the leader. He and seven others were convicted as spies by the Confederates and executed. Many of the participants received the Medal of Honor. While not convicted of “perfidy,” it would seem by posing as civilians to make an attack behind enemy lines this is what they did. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-ever-committed-perfidy/394093/19 "2007-03-02T04:35:18Z")
[QUOTE=bonitahi] This administration, and Commander in Chief, have committed perfidy, obviously. [/QUOTE] Nice knee-jerk there. Looks like your nervous system’s okay. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-ever-committed-perfidy/394093/20 "2007-03-02T07:09:02Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] No, that would be Albion. [/QUOTE] West Bromwich or Stirling? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-ever-committed-perfidy/394093.md?page=2)