# Has the US political landscape even been this divided in living memory? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 16, 2024, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-political-landscape-even-been-this-divided-in-living-memory/1004329 "2024-07-16T15:47:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2024, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-political-landscape-even-been-this-divided-in-living-memory/1004329/21 "2024-07-17T06:34:51Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > I think it was at least as divided in the 60s. I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2024, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-political-landscape-even-been-this-divided-in-living-memory/1004329/22 "2024-07-17T15:09:17Z")
Also while not quite in “living memory”, there was a huge divide between Republicans and Democrats around the turn of the 20th century. Republicans were thwarted in passing legislation by the “silent filibuster”, in which minority Democrats, many of them diehard pro-South anti-civil rights Congressmen, would refuse to answer roll calls, thus preventing the House from having a quorum to do business. Ultiimately the Republican Speaker of the House, [Tom Reed](http://americanheritage.com/czar-house), started reading off their names as “present” anyway, sparking furious protests and threats to physically attack the Speaker. > [@](#): > > …the Democrats foamed with rage. A hundred of them “were on their feet howling for recognition,” wrote Dunn of the AP. Little Joe Wheeler, a famous former Confederate cavalry general, unable to reach the front because of the crowded aisles, came down from the rear, “leaping from desk to desk as an ibex leaps from crag to crag.” As the excitement grew wilder, the only Democrat not on his feet was a huge representative from Texas who sat in his seat significantly whetting a bowie knife on his boot. You don’t see Congressmen ominously sharpening their Bowie knives in the House chamber these days…well, not yet anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2024, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-political-landscape-even-been-this-divided-in-living-memory/1004329/23 "2024-07-17T15:15:21Z")
Another vote for the 60s. The FBI spied on “subversives”. The narrow-minded hard hats hated (and beat up) the fuzzy headed hippies. The anti-war movement was “the enemy”. College was looked down on. It’s a lot more similar than people think. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2024, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-political-landscape-even-been-this-divided-in-living-memory/1004329/24 "2024-07-17T16:05:08Z")
I agree with HMS that a big difference between today and past eras is that “the left” actually has some real influence, and the right is flipping out about it. In the 60s, fuzzy headed hippies were getting beaten up in the streets, and civil rights activists were being killed by cops. But (to Jackmanii’s point), hippies and civil rights activists weren’t brawling with their opponents in the House chamber, because none of them were getting elected to the House. If we define “the left” as European-style social democrats, even ten years ago Bernie Sanders was a unicorn. Now progressives have real influence within one of the major parties. As usual, the threat of actual progress evokes extreme reaction from the privileged classes. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2024, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-political-landscape-even-been-this-divided-in-living-memory/1004329/25 "2024-07-17T16:15:40Z")
Split this topic on July 17, 2024, 4:15pm UTC 4 posts were split to a new topic: [What I don’t understand is why people who aren’t members of the privileged classes support Trump and his agenda](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-i-don-t-understand-is-why-people-who-aren-t-members-of-the-privileged-classes-support-trump-and-his-agenda/1004386) ---
**Author:** ![john\_b\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9a28c/32.png) [@john\_b\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/john_b_2)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2024, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-political-landscape-even-been-this-divided-in-living-memory/1004329/31 "2024-09-03T09:19:48Z")
I’ve never seen the fragmentation and hostilities between different groups and classes of Americans in my life as extreme as they are today. There were deeper divides on economic issues during the Great Depression, yet more agreement that many economic and social issues needed to be dealt with in one way or another; plus, for all the divisions we had in our country there was the primacy of the executive branch federally, which was never seriously threatened; nor was the authority of Congress challenged outside of voting booths; plus, the military was strong, and quite capable of restoring order when public protests got “out of hand”, as it were. The social divisions I see today are unprecedented in my lifetime; and the cover a wide range if issues, with the rise of “identity politics” a new things, raising issues that government seems incapable of resolving, and in many cases even addressing. Then come the precipitous decline in civility, especially with younger people; on college campuses, for instances; and on matters that institutions of higher learning cannot “fix”. So yes, this is about as bad as I’ve ever seen things in the U.S., and my historical memory is long, my memory is excellent, and I remember the “tumultuous 60s” very well; and tumultuous they were. Nowadays, we seem nearer to anarchy, to nihilism, especially with the decline of organized religion, of Catholics, Protestants and, more generally, Christians and Jews. We seem, to me, to be headed into an era of even greater social and political fragmentation than we have now, and with the prospects of far more dire consequences. On a personal note, as a senior; old, but not ancient, I do not wish to be young again in the world of today. If I had the chance to time travel back to the era of my youth, maybe I’d go for it; but not youth today. I would not want to be a younger man today; nor do I envy today’s younger people. Quite frankly, I feel bad for them; and no, not in a “superior” or condescending way; just simply for the time they shall have, far more than I’m like to have, in the New Millennium. For this alone I have empathy for them. I truly wish I could feel optimistic about the future, and I say this with the sincere hope that I am wrong, that things will work out for the better; and that we can find a way, as a nation and as a species, to improve the quality of life for us all; and also find ways of making the world itself,–literally, the earth–healthier, and a more fit place to live than it is now, especially where environmental issues are concerned. For those much under the age of fifty, I truly wish you the best. I want you to succeed, not fail; and I pray that our planet can survive, and avoid the ecological disasters that so often seem to be lurking around every corner. A belief in God, and less rigid and dogmatic kinds of Faith and spirituality, would, I believe, help us, and enable us to work together and not fall apart. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2024, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-political-landscape-even-been-this-divided-in-living-memory/1004329/32 "2024-09-03T14:03:41Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > And it’s not really a good analogy, because the hatred of Communists was completely bipartisan during the cold war. Defining “the left” as fringe extremist groups like the CPUSA, which implies that the Democrats and Republicans were both on “the right”, seems to violate the spirit of what I think the OP is asking. Back in the day both parties had conservative and progressive wings. I think that only ended during the Civil Rights era. That said, yes, Communists were always a tiny fringe and pretty universally hated (in the US). ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2024, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-political-landscape-even-been-this-divided-in-living-memory/1004329/33 "2024-09-03T14:14:35Z")
I think the “hate” of the OP is a bit misleading and potentially “both sides”-ing. I don’t “hate” everyone that votes for Trump; many are just badly misinformed. If I thought the American economy was on its knees and crime was out of control I might vote…well, I would still have trouble voting for Trump TBH, but the point is, I get the logic of wanting to vote out the incumbent based on these (false) premises. In terms of the politicians themselves, Dems have shown, once again during this term, that they are willing to work with Republicans. It’s just not reciprocated, because the GOP has been taken over by MAGA such that it’s only zealots and cowards now. These might sound like strong words, but I still don’t want to call it “hate” because the door has remained open for Republicans to come and help govern. ---
**Author:** ![Gordon\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3da27b/32.png) [@Gordon\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gordon_G)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2024, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-political-landscape-even-been-this-divided-in-living-memory/1004329/34 "2024-09-07T16:34:34Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > The thing is, in general I don’t get a 1st-person sense of that kind of hate in my day-to-day interactions and observations. To many “The Left” and “The Right” are vague boogeymen, lurking somewhere _out there_, but rarely encountered in actuality … > > IOW the media and political figures have greatly amplified and exaggerated said divisions… Do you live in a community where “centrism” is still strong? My impression is that irrational political hatreds are now rampant. Biden was always a moderate liked and respected by both sides, but recently has often been called “communist,” “evil,” etc. Media may have initiated the hyper-partisanship, but it now infects millions of ordinary citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-political-landscape-even-been-this-divided-in-living-memory/1004329/35 "2024-09-08T10:03:40Z")
I think the main difference is that it’s considered permissible to admit it. The Right has always had a rabid hatred, fear and contempt of everyone else (not just “the Left”) for as long as the concept has existed, but most people felt obligated to pretend otherwise no matter how obvious it was or how much damage they did. Trump and Trumpism _finally_ passed some threshold where people were scared & angry enough to push past the crowd demanding that they stay “civil” even if it killed them. The fact is, American history is _all about_ the Right punching down on the majority of the population; but that wasn’t considered “political division” because most of the people they hurt and killed were considered unpeople who could be treated as nonexistent. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-political-landscape-even-been-this-divided-in-living-memory/1004329/36 "2024-09-08T21:20:00Z")
> [@Saffer](#): > > The us left and right absolutely hate each other. Has this always been the case? I am not a student of political science and I have not really been exposed to much political news for longer than a couple decades. > > But it seems to be that the level of hatred is higher than it has ever been in those two decades. > > Has there been a recent time where they hated each other this much? I don’t think there’s been a time in recent memory where the hate has been this hot. So, my view on how this happened is that the two sides - or two parties, if you will - segmented into separate information universes. So, I guess we live in a multiverse when it comes to political news and information. I would argue that the Democrats/Liberals largely - not totally, but largely - live in a reality-based universe. It’s a universe where Climate Change is occurring. It’s a universe where vaccines save lives. It’s a universe where universal healthcare is not an evil thing. It’s a universe where supply-side shocks caused the inflation post-pandemic. It’s a universe where availability of guns is a big reason for the US having a higher murder rate than other developed nations. It’s also a universe where the 2020 election was free & fair, and Trump tried to overturn the election results to fraudulently remain in power. OTOH, Republicans largely - not completely, but largely - live in a universe where a lot of the above isn’t true, where reality doesn’t seep in. In their alternate universe, Climate Change is a hoax. UHC is evil. Covid-19 vaccines kill people. Guns are not responsible for the US high murder rate. Biden caused inflation. And the 2020 election was stolen by Biden. I think when you have two parties or two opposing political forces that occupy different information universes, it’s inevitable for HATE to be more intense than ever. One side thinks that the other is evil and anti-American. The other side thinks the other is insane… I know I’m over-simplifying. But I think this broadly captures what is happening today. Now…HOW this happened is probably the subject of hundreds of political science books already. But it has happened. I worry about the future of this country. ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2024, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-political-landscape-even-been-this-divided-in-living-memory/1004329/37 "2024-09-12T17:57:05Z")
I think the Internet has changed discourse so much that to ignore its impact is a big mistake. On a personal level, people always had resentments, hatred, and sometimes acted upon them. That has not changed. But the Internet has both amplified everyone’s individual ideas, while taking away the “center” that provided moderation. So your belief is that you “worry about the future of this country.” Pre-Internet, where do you go with such an idea? You’re stuck with the local people that you know. Sure, you can start a conversation at the local pub, the PTA meeting, church, wherever. But you have no idea what other people feel, they have other priorities. The odds of finding like minded folks, whatever your idea is, may be quite low. So it took a lot more energy for any such idea to take hold. This is not to say that people couldn’t work together to be racist or whatever, of course they could and they did. But it was more of a local thing, you actually had to know the people you were working with. Now, no matter what your idea is, you can find someone to hear about it and discuss it. On the Internet, that barrier is essentially zero. But that’s true of every idea - good, bad, evil, despairing, crackpot, flat out lies and misinformation. A huge communication barrier has been obliterated. A lot of ideas simply don’t get the testing out that they once did. I will make no judgment here on whether the new is better than the old. But it’s certainly vastly different. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2024, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-political-landscape-even-been-this-divided-in-living-memory/1004329/38 "2024-09-12T19:14:50Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > That’s the problem with citing Supreme Court justice approval votes (among many other things) of the Congress is not necessarily the best gauge of the political division in the country at a given time. I’d go with the statistics on the number of votes “along party lines”. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2024, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-political-landscape-even-been-this-divided-in-living-memory/1004329/39 "2024-09-12T21:55:54Z")
> [@Jay\_Z](#): > > I think the Internet has changed discourse so much that to ignore its impact is a big mistake. > > On a personal level, people always had resentments, hatred, and sometimes acted upon them. That has not changed. > > But the Internet has both amplified everyone’s individual ideas, while taking away the “center” that provided moderation. Eh, the “center” have always been just the people who avert their eyes to what the Right does while enabling them. The difference that it’s been harder and harder to ignore the people that the Right is relentlessly attacking, and attacking, and _attacking._ Most of the population\* was just treated as unpeople whose plight didn’t _matter,_ so we could pretend everything was united while most people suffered in silence. That’s been the shape of our society from the start; a small self-satisfied “center”, an enraged, bigoted and sadistic Right, and the majority of the population that the Right relentlessly and gleefully hammers on as a punching bag not allowed to complain or fight back. It’s only in the last few decades that’s changed at all. - “Women + minorities” _is_ the majority, almost by definition. The “mainstream” has always been a small minority of the actual population. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-political-landscape-even-been-this-divided-in-living-memory/1004329/40 "2024-10-03T16:38:26Z")
My impression is that any time out-groups grow in number and power, this causes massive polarization and radicalization of in-groups trying to maintain their privilege and power. This time is no different, but this has happened many times in Americas past. The 1960s, the 1920s, the 1860s, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Saffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saffer/32/6440_2.png) [@Saffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saffer)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-political-landscape-even-been-this-divided-in-living-memory/1004329/41 "2024-10-03T16:39:23Z")
Who are the out groups today? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-political-landscape-even-been-this-divided-in-living-memory/1004329/42 "2024-10-03T16:40:24Z")
Racists? The Religious Right? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-political-landscape-even-been-this-divided-in-living-memory/1004329/43 "2024-10-03T16:43:19Z")
> [@Saffer](#): > > Who are the out groups today? > **[In-group and out-group](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-group_and_out-group)** > > In social psychology and sociology, an in-group is a social group to which a person psychologically identifies as being a member. By contrast, an out-group is a social group with which an individual does not identify. People may for example identify with their peer group, family, community, sports team, political party, gender, sexual orientation, religion, or nation. It has been found that the psychological membership of social groups and categories is associated with a wide variety of phenome... In-groups are: Whites, men, christians, native born Americans, Cishet Out-groups: Everyone else. Non-whites, feminists, non-christians (muslims, atheists, etc), immigrants, LGBTQ As a nation the out-groups are growing in number and power. Back in the late 1970s, around 80% of Americans identified as white christians. The other 20% were either non-white, or were white non-christians. As of 2024 that number is closer to 45% who are white christians. Among Gen Z, only 27% identify as white christians. Being a white christian went from being the default demographic in the US to being a minority group. Women are rapidly growing in power in the politicial, social and economic system. LGBTQ is becoming more acceptable. America has a larger foreign born population than in the recent past. America is rapidly becoming more brown, more secular, more feminist, less heteronormative, more immigrant, etc. This causes a push back from in-groups trying to maintain their power, status and privilege. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-political-landscape-even-been-this-divided-in-living-memory/1004329/44 "2024-10-03T16:45:35Z")
Yes, but you also have to take into account that some out-group people gradually see themselves **as** in-group. I have some Chinese-American acquaintances, for instance, who are some of the loudest opponents of illegal immigration that you’ll ever find. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2024, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-political-landscape-even-been-this-divided-in-living-memory/1004329/45 "2024-10-03T16:45:50Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > My impression is that any time out-groups grow in number and power, this causes massive polarization and radicalization of in-groups trying to maintain their privilege and power. This time is no different, but this has happened many times in Americas past. > > The 1960s, the 1920s, the 1860s, etc. Also the 1960s saw 2nd wave feminism, the civil rights movement. The 1920s saw first wave feminism and massive immigration from europe. The 1860s saw the civil war, the end of slavery and the empowerment (for a short time) of black people under reconstruction. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-political-landscape-even-been-this-divided-in-living-memory/1004329.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-the-us-political-landscape-even-been-this-divided-in-living-memory/1004329.md?page=3)