Has the view of alcoholics changed?

Do you really have a firm grasp of what the general public’s view of alcoholism was prior to 1935?
I don’t but as someone pointed out earlier it’s not just AA’s influence over the last 75 years, although all successful treatment of alcoholism that I’m aware of includes a 12 step program. People wouldn’t be coming forward about their addictions if there was little likelihood of overcoming them.

I don’t think the Betty Ford Clinic or the recovery industry would exist in the scale it does today without AA.

The stigma of alcoholism is greatly reduced for those in recovery. For those who refuse to acknowledge and treat their alcoholism though the problem remains.

I’ve been sober for nearly 23 years and sobriety has enhanced my personal reputation and ability to function in society.

The law sees them as cash cows. In Michigan if you get popped for DUI it will cost about 10 K before they are done with you. But when you are done, the addiction has received very little attention. The emphasis is on punishment. The punishment includes community service and probation . Once they get you they do not want to let go.
Years ago drunk driving was not seen as seriously as it is now. They penalties have increased many times and jail is almost a certainty. That is why there is no drunk driving in Michigan any more.

But to play devil’s advocate, it could easily be argued that resisting treatment and trying to make yourself believe that you are not sick, IS a very part of alcoholism. As such, you couldn’t blame the alcoholic for continuing to drink anymore that you could blame an epileptic for continuing to have seizures. If so, you are just buying into the notion that all the alcoholic has to do is simply stop drinking; in other words, it is a willpower issue and not a disease.

I could go both ways on this issue. It just seems to be that if we are going to say that alcoholism is a disease, then we can’t add all of these "Yes, but"s on the end of our statements.

Doing more research on it, it seems like the experts are not unanimous in their calling alcoholism a disease, but I agree - if it’s a disease, it’s a disease. Of course, I don’t think many people argue that schizophrenia isn’t a disease, and that still has tons of stigma attached to it.

Well they seemed to be against it enough to ban it.

Stigma = fear. It’s not irrational to be afraid of either schizophrenics or alcoholics. They are both potentially dangerous and unpredictable as a result of their disease.

A serious problem is the idea that applying the concept of “disease” determines the appropriate response.

In ancient times, if you got leprosy, smallpox, whatever, you were thought of as having been blighted by Og, with which came the implication that you’d done something to deserve it. It was therefore legitimate (within that worldview) to condemn those with what we would now think of as diseases, or (alternatively and apparently arbitrarily) excuse them as being bewitched. Thus the religious model of affliction aetiology governed the social response to those afflicted.

This religious model of affliction was supplanted by the disease model, particularly once pathogens were discovered. If, instead of being thought of as being blighted by God, you simply had the bad luck to be struck randomly by a pathogen such a smallpox, then it was hardly your fault. You were entitled to sympathy and compassionate care. The response - in this case, compassion - was once again dictated by the aetiological model.

This history was played out markedly in cases of mental illness - the famous “Malleus Maleficarum” was intended as a text on how to identify demonic possession, but is now recognised as one of the first organised descriptions of the manifestations of mental illnesses.

But not all “diseases” have an aetiology as morally simple as those involving random pathogens. Some involve questions of choice, and those which involve questions of choice involve questions of degree of capacity to choose. To the extent that choice is possible, moral judgment is possible. It is thus not a simple matter of allocating to a condition the descriptor of “disease”, and then treating that descriptor as determining for all purposes the appropriate moral response.

An example. Schizophrenics in many cases have no meaningful control over their behaviour, and evidence suggests the source of the disease is in biochemistry and genetics. That the source of the illness is out of the control of the individual is a strong indicator that a compassionate response is appropriate. That the patient’s behaviours are beyond his control is also a strong indicator that a compassionate response is warranted.

But it is not always the case that the behaviour of a person with schizophrenia is beyond their control. Control may be impaired, but not destroyed. One commonly sees this in cases where a person with schizophrenia commits an offence outside the ambit of their delusions or hallucinations, or does something which indicates that they were aware of the moral wrongness of their behaviour or could partially control it (like waiting for an opportune moment to commit an offence, or lying or taking other steps to cover it up.) To the extent that choice remains, so does moral culpability. Diminished responsibility does not mean no responsibility.

Similarly with alcoholics. The argument that a feature of the disease is a tendency to deny the existence of disease and to deny the need for treatment can be overstated if it is expressed in terms that are too absolute. The argument overlooks the fact that a wide range of alcoholics whose affliction covers the spectrum of severity of addiction can, and do, teach themselves (often with help) to refrain from consumption notwithstanding that feature of the disease.

There are many conditions (I choose a relatively neutral term to avoid the loaded term “disease”) where a person retains the power of choice, albeit in some ways impaired. Gamblers, the morbidly obese, and substance abusers are common examples.

People being people, there is self-serving tendency sometimes to overclaim the benefits of compassion which they assert should to flow them because of their “disease”. Thus, the woman on Dr Phil and Mitch Hedberg (who was an addict) had an interest in pretending that it was all as simple as drawing a straight line between the label “disease” and the conclusion that they deserved unalloyed sympathy. The analogy between alcoholism and HIV or lupus is imperfect.

But there is something of an industry in trying to identify some patterns of behaviour as new “diseases” in the hope that sympathy rather than condemnation will automatically follow. Hence, sex addiction as the new alcoholism for the Tiger Woods of the world. But a sex addict is not beyond moral and legal judgment should he cheat on his wife or rape someone, nor is a gambling addict should he steal from his employer. The reason is that the power of choice is retained.

It is also important to distinguish between a disorder and a disease. These terms are imperfect as well for what I want to discuss, but they will do for the present. Upthread, Chief Pedant asked the rhetorical question, "Why is a mugger who kills impulsively not equally a “victim” of his “disease”? BigT responded with “They generally are. Almost every psychologist I have ever met would consider this a mental disorder.”

The DSM IV makes it clear that its definitions of disorders carry no implication of moral or criminal culpability. Most of the personality disorders are defined in large measure operationally, by reference to the disturbance the disorder causes to the person. They are commonly conceived of as descriptions of a person’s personality rather than as a disease entity. A psychopath has an anti-social personality disorder. That does not mean he cannot make choices, nor does it mean he is excused liability for his decisions.

All the serial killers are probably psychopaths. We imprison them not on the purely pragmatic theory that we have to protect ourselves somehow - we could put them in mental institutions for that. We imprison them because they do not qualify as having a disease, with all the connotations of sympathy and compassion I described above. They are not deprived of choice.

And the same goes for sexual disorders, particular paedophilia.

There is no doubt paedophiles have a strong compulsion to have sex with children, but they can resist the temptation, just as married people can resist the temptation to cheat with the uber hottie down the corridor at work.

Labelling something a “disorder” tells us little or nothing about how we should respond to someone displaying the signs of it.

So to answer the OP, my impression of the 1930s and 40s was that alcoholics were treated with contempt. Their condition was treated as entirely a character failing. Now, partly through the efforts of AA and partly through academic research, there is less condemnation, especially of those who at least make an effort. How hard it is to recover is better understood generally, although it seems also to be understood that there remains a component of choice in the condition. The remaining capacity for choice is not really capable of objective measurement either generally or in a particular case, so different people attach different weights to their judgment of how much the affliction is a consequence of choice. Hence, there is no clear answer to the question, beyond a sense of general improvement in compassion towards alcoholics.

I know an epileptic who isn’t fully treatable and cannot drive. She does not whine about it. Bums rides, yes, but no whining. Or Whinging as we say here on the intertubes. We wouldn’t want her to drive, as she is subject to passing out at any moment.

I have said the words “Damn it, you have Diabetes!” to a person who constantly failed to treat hers properly.

When I was a kid you couldn’t get certain medicines, especialy cough syrup, without alcohol in them. Now there’s an entire aisle at the pharmacy for the alcohol-free syrups. And let’s not forget mouthwash. And when you walked into the grocery store you were forced to walk through the wine and beer to get to the food. That has also changed.

Are these societal nods to alcoholics? I think so. Public knowledge has led to some definite changes. I also think people are less likely to chuckle about a drinking problem. When I was a id it was funny to tell stories about driving home and running off the road etc. It was considered wild and crazy and proof that you were a fun person. Now it’s not funny, it’s shameful. (Maybe that’s more about MAD than alcoholism though.)

I think people are less likely to assume drunks are morally degraded, but more liekly to hold them accountable for their actions. Gone are the days of Andy gently guiding Opus into the cell for the night. Folks are most likely to apply their own (often misguided) form of “tough love.”

Depends where you live. Many of the stores in VA have the wine before the produce section (which IME is usually first most places). Beer is often set somewhere that makes it harder to steal.

Booze is sold completely separately from groceries in Canada (in special booze stores), and has been all my life, so that hasn’t changed here.

Yours is a thoughtful reply that doesn’t deserve to be buried in the bottom of a thread. Thank you for taking the time to post it. This whole area probably deserves its own thread.

The question of whether an individual “cannot make choices” nor be “excused liability” is a very complicated one, and I must say I don’t agree with the supposition that the behaviour of people with “disorders” instead of “diseases” is simply a matter of choice (I think that’s what you are saying). While it’s true the disorders might be better characterized as descriptions of behaviour, that does not mean there is no underlying “disease” causing that behaviour. At some fundamental level, a typical personality disorder has a difference in physiology underlying that behaviour. We just don’t know what it is. But it is not just his choice to behave badly.

I am neither a shrink nor a lawyer, but from a legal standpoint, the commonest dividing point I see for culpability for really bad stuff is whether the person was clinically psychotic or not–i.e. could they distinguish reality from non-reality. If so, we hold them legally accountable, but this is not evidence that their genes are not defective.

Great post. However, the major hurdle I can’t get over is this example:

Alcoholism and stomach cancer are both diseases, no?

Guy #1, spends entire family paycheck on booze=bad, immoral, wife should leave him, selfish, drunk, etc.

Guy #2, spends entire family paycheck on chemo treatment=that poor man, we should all do what we can to support him.

If we will concede that these are both diseases, and most in this thread do, then why the differences of attitudes?

If Guy #2 spent his paycheck on radioactive pretzels, I bet you’d see a more uniform response.

Because guy #2 is spending his entire paycheck on treatment. A better analogy would be if guy #1 spent his entire paycheck on detox, fuel to drive to-and-from AA meetings, and a buck for the basket.

In those cases they would both earn my sympathy, because they would both be in treatment.

Somebody very drunk is not capable of distinguishing reality from non-reality. Should they be off the hook if they kill somebody while driving in that state?
(Not trying to snark - I’m really interested in how much responsibility you can assign people who are altered by alcohol.)

And yes, that was an excellent post, Noel.

What does this have to do with the topic?