# Has there been a false flag in recent American history? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 5, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-been-a-false-flag-in-recent-american-history/721714 "2015-06-05T15:34:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-been-a-false-flag-in-recent-american-history/721714/1 "2015-06-05T15:34:44Z")
9/11. Aurora. Sandy Hook. Columbine. Oklahoma City. Boston Marathon. All of these and others I can’t think of have been considered “false flag operations” by conspiracy theorists. None of them actually seem to have been. I guess we wouldn’t know. Conspiracy theorists would say the evidence can’t prove anything either way. Is there any such incident in the last, say, 25 years or so that has turned out to have been concocted by The Government? I understand the Gulf of Tonkin incident was (though I didn’t look that up), and the Maine was an accident blamed on enemy action by people who knew better (ditto). And there were Pearl Harbor LIHOPers before 1942. But recently? Basically, are these people ridiculous or just wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-been-a-false-flag-in-recent-american-history/721714/2 "2015-06-05T15:40:24Z")
as I understand the theory behind false flag allegations is that the attack actually happened, but “our guys” did it and blamed “their guys.” If I’m correct, the Gulf of Tonkin would not be an example. Nor would the _Maine_, come to think of it. To answer your question (Basically, are these people ridiculous or just wrong? ) I’d vote for ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-been-a-false-flag-in-recent-american-history/721714/3 "2015-06-05T15:51:37Z")
Wikipedia is unclear about Sự kiện Vịnh Bắc Bộ. Is it excluded because the _Maddox_ was never attacked at all? As I said here a couple of years ago, it would be easier to invent something like the Boston Marathon bombing out of whole cloth\* than to do it as a false flag. \*Though maybe not on that scale, and you’d need more fatalities than non-fatal injuries, whereas in the Boston Marathon attack it was the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-been-a-false-flag-in-recent-american-history/721714/4 "2015-06-05T17:07:50Z")
As a friend of mine used to quip, how can a government that can barely blow its nose plan, organize and execute a massive internal attack without anyone knowing about it? He was referring to the Kennedy assassination, but I think it applies generally. I think we give the geniuses in Washington DC far too much credit… ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-been-a-false-flag-in-recent-american-history/721714/5 "2015-06-05T17:23:59Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > As a friend of mine used to quip, how can a government that can barely blow its nose plan, organize and execute a massive internal attack without anyone knowing about it? He was referring to the Kennedy assassination, but I think it applies generally. I think we give the geniuses in Washington DC far too much credit… The problem with conspiracy theories is that they tend to require a massive number of people to shut up and never spill the beans. How does that work? Just to pick apart 9/11 conspiracies - what, either explosives experts go in and filled a building or three with explosives in the midst of a major fire - carrying enough explosives to rig a steel building an acre in size - or somehow they did this during the preceding few days, set live charges against a couple of hundred steel columns all over, and nobody noticed. (Ever seen those documentaries on actually imploding a building? The prep work is intense) Then what - they paid hijackers to commit suicide, or faked a plane crash or made sure the hijackers weren’t caught by ordering airport security to ignore them? The more you dig into the ways any of these things are done, the harder it is to actually pull it off without dragging in people all over the place. Don’t you think people would notice if those airport security screeners got “substituted” for trusted personnel? I always find it humorous in these heist or spy movies that all it takes to get into the top-secret whatever is a uniform and an ID badge. Most of those security people know each other, most would recognize a “new guy”, or at least ask “who are you?” Too many ways for the whole thing to go wrong. Besides, if there was a top secret, no questions asked slush fund for explosives and bribes, how long before it ends up buying hookers and cocaine for the enjoyment of the fund managers? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-been-a-false-flag-in-recent-american-history/721714/6 "2015-06-05T17:32:41Z")
> [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#): > > I understand the Gulf of Tonkin incident was (though I didn’t look that up), and the Maine was an accident blamed on enemy action by people who knew better (ditto). Gulf of Tonkin _was_ a clusterfuck, and certainly blown out of proportion and/or the result of bad Intel. Or perhaps even a deliberate provocation. But it certainly wasnt a “false flag”. > **[Gulf of Tonkin incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident)** > > American intervention > 1965 > 1966 > 1967 Nor was the Maine. At the time, no one "knew better’ they just took one of several theories and used the one that suited their political needs best. We still are not sure why the Maine blew up: > **[USS Maine (1889)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Maine_(ACR-1))** > > Maine was a United States Navy ship that sank in Havana Harbor on February 15, 1898, contributing to the outbreak of the Spanish–American War in April. U.S. newspapers, engaging in yellow journalism to boost circulation, claimed that the Spanish were responsible for the ship's destruction. The phrase, "Remember the Maine! To hell with Spain!" became a rallying cry for action. Although the Maine explosion was not a direct cause, it served as a catalyst that accelerated the events leading up to t... _The cause of the Maine 's sinking remains a subject of speculation._ Most likely is that a coal bunker fire caused the explosion, but a small mine has not been ruled out. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-been-a-false-flag-in-recent-american-history/721714/7 "2015-06-05T18:11:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Nor was the Maine. At the time, no one "knew better’ they just took one of several theories and used the one that suited their political needs best. > > We still are not sure why the Maine blew up: > [USS Maine (1889) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Maine_(ACR-1)) > _The cause of the Maine 's sinking remains a subject of speculation._ Most likely is that a coal bunker fire caused the explosion, but a small mine has not been ruled out. Even under the most charitable of interpretations, this was something very close to a false flag attack. It was known from the beginning that the explosion was likely accidental, but warmongers deliberately ignored this possability in a rush to blame Spain. And if it actually turned out to be true, then so much the better. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-been-a-false-flag-in-recent-american-history/721714/8 "2015-06-05T18:21:51Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Even under the most charitable of interpretations, this was something very close to a false flag attack. It was known from the beginning that the explosion was likely accidental, but warmongers deliberately ignored this possability in a rush to blame Spain. And if it actually turned out to be true, then so much the better. That’s not what a False Flag is. > **[False flag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag)** > > A false flag operation is an act committed with the intent of disguising the actual source of responsibility and pinning blame on another party. The term "false flag" originated in the 16th century as an expression meaning an intentional misrepresentation of someone's allegiance. The term was originally used to describe a ruse in naval warfare whereby a vessel flew the flag of a neutral or enemy country in order to hide its true identity. The tactic was initially used by pirates an The term tod... _False flag (or black flag) describes covert operations designed to deceive in such a way that the operations appear as though they are being carried out by entities, groups, or nations other than those who actually planned and executed them._ The Gleiwitz incident is a good example. In the case of the Maine they took an unknown reason and ignored possible accidental causes for war. Still, even to this day, the possibility of the Maine being mined is a theory. The Maine would only be a False flag if the USA blew it up, which only nutsos believe. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-been-a-false-flag-in-recent-american-history/721714/9 "2015-06-05T18:57:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That’s not what a False Flag is. > [False flag - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag) > _False flag (or black flag) describes covert operations designed to deceive in such a way that the operations appear as though they are being carried out by entities, groups, or nations other than those who actually planned and executed them._ > > The Gleiwitz incident is a good example. > > In the case of the Maine they took an unknown reason and ignored possible accidental causes for war. Still, even to this day, the possibility of the Maine being mined is a theory. The Maine would only be a False flag if the USA blew it up, which only nutsos believe. I didn’t say it was a false flag attack. I said it was very close to a false flag attack. Which it was. This stops one step short of a false flag attack, in that they were willfully ignoring evidence (coal fires were a known hazard, and witness testimony did not support the mine theory) in order to assign blame for political reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-been-a-false-flag-in-recent-american-history/721714/10 "2015-06-05T19:33:28Z")
It’s hard to know what to make of the Israeli attack on the _USS LIberty_. The official claim, accepted by the US, is that the IDF mistook the _Liberty_ for an Arab ship half its size and with a considerably different configuration (which was and had been rusting away in port for years). They failed to notice the US flag or the enormous satellite dish in several hours of repeated attack runs - or so they claim. That the \*Liberty \*was actually an NSA spy ship very likely listening in on sensitive war communications the Israelis didn’t want overheard is much more likely. But to the dismay of the survivors, the “misidentification” story and fairly trivial reparations were allowed to stand. Not sure how well that crosses with the simpler notion of a false flag operation, but I thought I’d throw it in. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-been-a-false-flag-in-recent-american-history/721714/11 "2015-06-05T20:00:41Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > It’s hard to know what to make of the Israeli attack on the _USS LIberty_. The official claim, accepted by the US, is that the IDF mistook the _Liberty_ for an Arab ship half its size and with a considerably different configuration (which was and had been rusting away in port for years). They failed to notice the US flag or the enormous satellite dish in several hours of repeated attack runs - or so they claim. > > That the \*Liberty \*was actually an NSA spy ship very likely listening in on sensitive war communications the Israelis didn’t want overheard is much more likely. But to the dismay of the survivors, the “misidentification” story and fairly trivial reparations were allowed to stand. > > Not sure how well that crosses with the simpler notion of a false flag operation, but I thought I’d throw it in. I’d say that’s more of a cover-up: The US government helped bury the incident (by accepting the fairly absurd claim of mistaken identity) because it got caught spying on an ally. Which everybody does, altho everybody also likes to pretend it doesn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-been-a-false-flag-in-recent-american-history/721714/12 "2015-06-05T21:25:15Z")
IMO … In no way could the \*Liberty \*incident be a false flag. “False flag” has a very specific meaning which is not synonymous with “somebody involved is lying.” The attack was perpetrated by the IDF. As admitted by the IDF. The target attacked was a US ship. As admitted by the US. By definition that is not false flag, whether the Israeli attackers at the time actually thought the ship was US, Arab, or Klingon. Back to the OP. IANA historian, but I am not aware of any false flag ops committed by or against the US which have come to be widely recognized as such. Certainly the US has planned some that were outed before execution. Operation Northwoods coming readily to mind. [Operation Northwoods - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods) The “little green men” attacks in Ukraine are almost certainly examples of false flag ops. Though the Russian’s plausible deniability is very, very thin; only their own propagandists don’t see through the camouflage. The US is neither target nor perpetrator of these. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-been-a-false-flag-in-recent-american-history/721714/13 "2015-06-05T21:38:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That’s not what a False Flag is. > [False flag - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag) > _False flag (or black flag) describes covert operations designed to deceive in such a way that the operations appear as though they are being carried out by entities, groups, or nations other than those who actually planned and executed them._ > > The Gleiwitz incident is a good example. The Mukden incident would be another.