# Has there ever been a benevolent dictator/dictatorship? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 23, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-benevolent-dictator-dictatorship/490489 "2009-03-23T18:45:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-benevolent-dictator-dictatorship/490489/61 "2009-03-26T17:08:31Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Right, because brutal repression always makes stuff better, that’s my motto. In the sense that repression is better than genocidal chaos, yes. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-benevolent-dictator-dictatorship/490489/62 "2009-03-26T17:33:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > All of which actually seems like a good idea in hindsight, when we consider what happened there after the lid was ripped off. It seems almost like it was some sort of “pax Romana”. No one liked the Romans (editorial license?), they controlled everything, but at least you had some protection and safety…when they left, the Dark Ages started and things were far worse. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-benevolent-dictator-dictatorship/490489/63 "2009-03-27T19:55:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > In the sense that repression is better than genocidal chaos, yes. Right, but the genocidal chaos came about because the Yugoslav government engaged in the repression, and because they didn’t do things to help solve he nationalities question, but instead just mandated that it was something that must not be talked about, the naggressive nationalinism and ethnic hatred got linked in people’s minds with opposition to the Communist regime. It’s the same reason neo-nazism is so much stronger in eastern Germany than western Germany. A lot of East Germans figured, “Well, if the government is so opposed to it, it can’t be that bad.” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-benevolent-dictator-dictatorship/490489/64 "2009-03-27T22:16:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > In the sense that repression is better than genocidal chaos, yes. I don’t think Tito had much to boast about in terms of genocide and chaos. [Rummel goes on to identify the top nine killers: (1) Joseph Stalin, 43 million dead, 1929-'53; (2) Mao Tse-tung, 38 million, 1923-'76; (3) Adolf Hitler, 21 million, 1933-'45; (4) Chiang Kai-shek, 10 million, 1921-'48; (5) Vladimir Lenin, 4 million, 1917-'24; (6) Tojo Hideki (Japan), 4 million, 1941-'45; (7) Pol Pot, 2.4 million, 1968-'87; (8) Yahya Khan (Pakistan), 1.5 million, 1971; \*\* (9) Josip Broz, better known as Marshal Tito (Yugoslavia), 1.2 million, 1941-'80.\*\*](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2419/was-andrew-jackson-one-of-the-worlds-most-prolific-mass-murderers). And third overall as a percentage of the populace murdered. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-benevolent-dictator-dictatorship/490489/65 "2009-03-28T00:04:05Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Ok, of course Mussolini was a disaster for Italy (after 1939); but before? He probaly did a lot of good: > -he suppressed the Mafia in Sicily (the only man known to hav done so) > -he built the autostrada (highways) > -he made the trains run on time > Had he allied himself with Great Britain and France (instead of Germany), he probably would be fondly remembered today. First be careful, I’ve been called a Nazi in this board just for making the same argument about Hitler. Second had Mussolini allied himself with Great Britain and France Hitler would have blasted him out of the map in 1940, at least IMHO. Still, it´s a great idea for a what if thread. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2009, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-benevolent-dictator-dictatorship/490489/66 "2009-03-28T01:47:41Z")
> [@RogueAOV](#): > > I did not indicated anyone had called him a dictator here Lalenin, i was asking if anyone had information regarding why the American media constantly refer to him as a dictator, is there anyone in the straight dope which has any information about him from the ground, as it were. I’ve never heard him referred to as a “Dictator” by any meanstream American news source. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2009, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-benevolent-dictator-dictatorship/490489/67 "2009-03-28T01:51:25Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > What about Indira Ghandi? I think the Sikhs might have some problem with that claim: > **[The Emergency (India)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Emergency_(1975-1977)#Sikh_Opposition)** > > The Emergency in India was a 21-month period from 1975 to 1977 when Prime Minister Indira Gandhi declared a state of emergency across India by citing internal and external threats to the country. > Officially issued by President Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed under Article 352 of the Constitution because of a prevailing "Internal Disturbance", the Emergency was in effect from 25 June 1975 and ended on 21 March 1977. The order bestowed upon the prime minister the authority to rule by decree, allowing elec... ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2009, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-benevolent-dictator-dictatorship/490489/68 "2009-03-28T06:03:00Z")
> [@](#): > > The colonists living here in America didn’t seem to feel that way; as they said > [@](#): > > From the document they wrote about it, called the Declaration of Independence. Most of that document was devoted to listing all the oppressions they felt. Face facts. The colonies were not hellholes. They had a prosperous economy and a strong and educated native political leadership that was ready to step up and run a country - and they developed all of that under British rule. If the British actually had been a tyranny, then the American Revolution would have failed because Parliament would have squashed any opposition long before 1776. Do you think the Tsar would have allowed the Continental Congress to meet and debate independance? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2009, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-benevolent-dictator-dictatorship/490489/69 "2009-03-28T06:38:42Z")
Yes. Bill Gates has become rich enough that he could very easily wield his influence in such a way as to be a putative shadow government. We’re just lucky he chooses not to do so. This is my biggest problem with today’s regulation-free, no-rules, market-is-God business climate: if we lived in a comic book world, Bill Gates would be an evil arch criminal who would take over the world for his own nefarious reasons. No single human being should have that much power; again, we’re just lucky he doesn’t realize that. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2009, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-benevolent-dictator-dictatorship/490489/70 "2009-03-28T07:09:24Z")
> [@](#): > > And third overall as a percentage of the populace murdered. You misread Rummel. It was the [Ustasha regime](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1e) not the Tito regime that he listed as third place. ---
**Author:** ![manila](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@manila](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manila)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2009, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-benevolent-dictator-dictatorship/490489/71 "2009-03-28T08:38:26Z")
Sultan of Brunei springs to mind. No personal tax, Free education, free house on marriage ( for Bruneians) [http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zeroes/Sultan\_Brunei.html](http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zeroes/Sultan_Brunei.html) ---
**Author:** ![petew83](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@petew83](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/petew83)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2009, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-benevolent-dictator-dictatorship/490489/72 "2009-03-28T13:57:39Z")
King Arthur ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-benevolent-dictator-dictatorship/490489/73 "2009-03-28T17:20:42Z")
> [@manila](#): > > Sultan of Brunei springs to mind. > > No personal tax, Free education, free house on marriage ( for Bruneians) And, of course, almost no civil rights, but I guess that comes with the dictatorship part. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-benevolent-dictator-dictatorship/490489/74 "2009-03-28T18:21:39Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’ve never heard him referred to as a “Dictator” by any meanstream American news source. Yeah, I think that comes mainly from the blogosphere. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-benevolent-dictator-dictatorship/490489/75 "2009-03-29T02:29:30Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You misread Rummel. It was the [Ustasha regime](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1e) not the Tito regime that he listed as third place. True -still, Tito is in the top ten overall. Not particularly benevolent Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2009, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-benevolent-dictator-dictatorship/490489/76 "2009-03-29T02:31:11Z")
You kill a thousand political prisoners here. Wipe out a village there. Over the course of a few decades it add up. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2009, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-benevolent-dictator-dictatorship/490489/77 "2009-03-29T02:45:36Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Yes. > > Bill Gates has become rich enough that he could very easily wield his influence in such a way as to be a putative shadow government. We’re just lucky he chooses not to do so. I think you’re wildly overestimating Gates’s practical wealth. His entire net worth is roughly equivalent to what the United States Department of Agriculture spends in a good five months, and of course, he can’t actually use his entire net worth. Microsoft is a very famous company and looms large to regular internet users and computer-savvy people, but it’s a pimple on the ass of international commerce. Last year Fortune magazine ranked it the world’s 136th largest company, which is pretty impressive - they’re certainly bigger than your local dry cleaner - but they’re pikers next to Wal-Mart or a big oil company. In fact, they’re not even the biggest IT-related firm; to my honest amazement, IBM is much bigger. Or the banks. The USA has pumped more bailout money into the banks than Microsoft will make in gross revenue in the next ten years; AIG alone has gotten about three years of MS gross revenue. No individual can influence a big industrialized country’s government. What is scary is that a class of individuals most certainly can, and we call them “Bankers.” They’ve screwed the common man, and how. But it took a lot of them working together to do it. ---
**Author:** ![RogueAOV](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecb155/32.png) [@RogueAOV](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RogueAOV)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2009, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-benevolent-dictator-dictatorship/490489/78 "2009-03-29T05:08:27Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’ve never heard him referred to as a “Dictator” by any meanstream American news source. I have heard him called a quasi dictator on fox news, mostly on things such as glenn beck and oreilly. I concede that they arent exactly “hard” news. Also i have not heard anything on the news that speaks of him anything other than in poor terms. Indicating that he is a dictator in all but name. So my intial post was not accurate in terms, the thread said dictators, i went with dictator. So to clarify my original question, whats wrong with Hugo Chavez? is it fair to be considered quasi dictator, or spoken about in that vein when the majority of voters are happy with your choices. I am sorry if i was unclear:smack: ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-benevolent-dictator-dictatorship/490489/79 "2009-03-29T16:18:39Z")
With Chavez up until this year’s referendum (what he’s doing in the aftermath is a whole another story) as with Indira Gandhi, there is the issue that you can run a repressive or illiberal government yet NOT be a “dictator” as the term is modernly understood. Mrs. Gandhi (neé Nehru) was freely elected, defeated to become opposition and elected again, and even the state of emergency in the 70s was decreed constitutionally and it led to her defeat at the polls, which was respected. She was (and her successors in the Nehru-Gandhi clan have been) more akin to what we’d call a “political boss” than a dictator. FWIW, IMO so was Mr. Chavez up until relatively recently: a populist demagogue who gained and expanded his power by gaming the system, but \*the system itself \*\*was \*\*still \* “free” – as late as last year his party was losing local elections; for the first few years of his rule he was able to run unchecked because the opposition was dysfunctional, rather than actively repressed; and yes, majority of the voters approved of his policies of cracking down on the institutions of the Old Establishment (big media, foreign corporations). NOW he’s taking a turn towards overt authoritarianism and entrenching himself in power by force if necessary, so he may yet become a “dictator”. (In which case, the dwellers of the Caracas slums will still likely think of him as quite “benevolent”, while the people whose newspaper or TV station he impounded will say I told you so…) ---
**Author:** ![First\_Amongst\_Daves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4491bb/32.png) [@First\_Amongst\_Daves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/First_Amongst_Daves)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-benevolent-dictator-dictatorship/490489/80 "2009-03-30T03:21:24Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > Napoleon III wasn’t too bad-- his human rights record, particularly in the second half of his regime, was in many ways better than that of many other “democratic” 19th-century French leaders. Yes. Setting aside BrainGlutton’s comments on Haussman’s improvements to Paris under Napoleon III’s supervision, his terrible military record in the failed coups against the Restoration government of Louis-Philippe led him against using force. He repeatedly appealed instead to popularist ideals of the working class and invoked his bloodline to get him where he wanted to be. Still, when he overthrew the Second Republic in his capacity as its Prince-President he wasn’t afraid of locking up his political opponents in jail, and he relied upon army units to achieve that. (And of course his military incompetance led to the Franco-Prussian War, where he was deposed.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-benevolent-dictator-dictatorship/490489.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-benevolent-dictator-dictatorship/490489.md?page=5)