Has there ever been a Buddhist war?

[Capoeirista]

@even_sven

I read an interesting biography of Pol Pot that posited that Cambodia’s traditional Buddhism may have actually increased the atrocities that happened there. Basically it says Buddhism’s ideas about suffering allowed people to distance themselves enough to commit and accept really horrific acts. After all, if all life is suffering, what does it matter if you are making people suffer a bit more? According to Buddhism it’s all an illusion they ought to be working past anyway.

Eh, nah. I think that’s a weak argument. While Buddhists do believe that much of life is suffering, that doesn’t mean they think that more suffering is okay. Suffering is not an illusion, and 1st Noble Truth is that suffering exists! The philosophy/religion of Buddhism is basically a method of escaping suffering, so why would making people suffer more be permissible?

[Koxinga]

@Capoeirista

@even_sven

I read an interesting biography of Pol Pot that posited that Cambodia’s traditional Buddhism may have actually increased the atrocities that happened there. Basically it says Buddhism’s ideas about suffering allowed people to distance themselves enough to commit and accept really horrific acts. After all, if all life is suffering, what does it matter if you are making people suffer a bit more? According to Buddhism it’s all an illusion they ought to be working past anyway.

Eh, nah. I think that’s a weak argument. While Buddhists do believe that much of life is suffering, that doesn’t mean they think that more suffering is okay. Suffering is not an illusion, and 1st Noble Truth is that suffering exists! The philosophy/religion of Buddhism is basically a method of escaping suffering, so why would making people suffer more be permissible?

It’s pretty clear (to me, at least) that some Asian societies have (perhaps unconsciously) seized on some Buddhist teachings and/or traditional beliefs to justify some pretty unpleasant practices. For example, rationalizing discrimination against a permanent underclass doing society’s necessary but “unclean” work like butchery, tanning and burial of the dead: Japan’s burakumin.

In short, anyone telling you that religion X is different from the others because it never does Y is either fooling him/herself or trying to sell you a bill of goods. Or both. I’ve met more than one Buddhist who is filled with purse-lipped sanctimony that would rival any Southern Baptist.

[Capoeirista]

@Koxinga

It’s pretty clear (to me, at least) that some Asian societies have (perhaps unconsciously) seized on some Buddhist teachings and/or traditional beliefs to justify some pretty unpleasant practices. For example, rationalizing discrimination against a permanent underclass doing society’s necessary but “unclean” work like butchery, tanning and burial of the dead: Japan’s burakumin.

That’s true, but the treatment of the Burakumin is also tied up in Shintoism’s obsession with cleanliness and purity, so it’s not just a Buddhist thing. Not to say Buddhism couldn’t be part of it, though.

[Shot_From_Guns]

@BrainGlutton

Wonder what Marx would have thought of that . . .

IMO, people often misunderstand the “opiate of the masses” quote. The way I see it, Marx wasn’t saying religion was dangerous because it was addictive and destructive. He was saying it was dangerous because it was so helpful–it was an effective way of dulling the pain of many people’s existences. Which is why it was dangerous–it addressed the symptoms instead of the root causes, like taking morphine for a broken leg instead of setting the bone and putting a cast on it. So the morphine isn’t bad, except as it allows you to continue on without actually treating or healing the injury.

@Koxinga

It’s pretty clear (to me, at least) that some Asian societies have (perhaps unconsciously) seized on some Buddhist teachings and/or traditional beliefs to justify some pretty unpleasant practices. For example, rationalizing discrimination against a permanent underclass doing society’s necessary but “unclean” work like butchery, tanning and burial of the dead: Japan’s burakumin.

Nitpick: AFAIK, that’s coming out of Shinto beliefs about purity, not Buddhist.

But I’ll give you credit for using the term *burakumin *instead of shortening it to buraku.

[Phlosphr]

Slight Hijack

So how are you liking the Buddhist thing Zsofia?

Personally, love it, changed my life. I follow a Shambhala tradition but it certainly allows me to open space for the day and know that everything comes back to the breath

[Koxinga]

@Shot_From_Guns

@Koxinga

It’s pretty clear (to me, at least) that some Asian societies have (perhaps unconsciously) seized on some Buddhist teachings and/or traditional beliefs to justify some pretty unpleasant practices. For example, rationalizing discrimination against a permanent underclass doing society’s necessary but “unclean” work like butchery, tanning and burial of the dead: Japan’s burakumin.

Nitpick: AFAIK, that’s coming out of Shinto beliefs about purity, not Buddhist.

Same thing happened in Tibet up to 1959:

Ragyabpa - Untouchables
The ragyabpa or untouchable caste were the lowest level, and they performed the ‘unclean’ work. This included fishermen, butchers, executioners, corpse disposers, blacksmiths and goldsmiths. Ragyabpa were also divided into three divisions: for instance a goldsmith was in the highest untouchable class, and was not regarded as being as defiled as an executioner, who was in the lowest.

They were regarded as both polluted and polluting, membership of the caste was hereditary, and escape from the untouchable status was not possible.

[Zsofia]

@Phlosphr

Slight Hijack

So how are you liking the Buddhist thing Zsofia?

Personally, love it, changed my life. I follow a Shambhala tradition but it certainly allows me to open space for the day and know that everything comes back to the breath

I’m digging it. It’s surprising how difficult it is to achieve a real depth of knowledge about a faith you didn’t grow up in, though - it’s taught me a deep gratitude for all that Sunday school. I’m having to seriously apply myself and ILL books and such to get the same kind of surface understanding that I had of Christianity’s literature, history, and philosophy when I was five or six!

[Shot_From_Guns]

@Koxinga

Same thing happened in Tibet up to 1959

Yup, not saying it *can’t *or *doesn’t *happen because of Buddhism–just that in Japan, it came more out of Shinto. (That’s why I listed it as a nitpick. :p)

[Siam_Sam]

The “peaceful” (Ha! Always makes me giggle) Buddhists in Thailand keep waging war on themselves these days. Red versus yellow shirts, and the April-May death and destruction.

[BigT]

@even_sven

It seems to me that Buddhism blends so easily with local religions and power structures that it’s hard to argue that anyplace is really a Buddhist country. Even places with clearly Buddhist power structures like Tibet are pretty deeply influenced by the local practices that thrived there before. Anyway, I think the best we can talk about is Buddhist influenced countries.

@Ludovic

You could say the same for Islam and Christianity. Maybe less so for Hinduism and Judaism, but still…

I know it’s pretty homogenized in the Philippines. There were so many things my various Filipino pen pals would talk about when I mentioned being a Christian as if I should know about them.

[Olentzero]

@BrainGlutton

Wonder what Marx would have thought of that . . .

Horrified.

[JoseB]

And, perversion of Buddhist doctrine that it might have been, let us not forget the Aum Shinrikyo cult and its weirdos, who didn’t manage to gas thousands to death in Tokyo only because of their incompetence, not because of their lack of zeal…

[cuberdon]

@Captain_Amazing

1. The first thing that comes to mind were the Ikko Ikki revolts. They were a religious/political movement in the 1400s-1500s Japan that basically seized various important parts of Japan in revolt against the samurai, and even managed to overthrow one daimyo. They were eventually put down by various daimyo. Beyond that, most Buddhist sects and temples in Japan had warrior monks attached to them and were constantly fighting each other over matters of doctrine and territory. Here’s Wikipedia’s article about the Sohei.

My understanding is that it was fighting over privileges granted to one sect vs another sect at least as much as it was over doctrinal differences. Also, during the Heian period, when the monks wanted to intimidate the court, they would parade their mikoshi through town. One emperor said that there were three things he could not control: the weather, the flooding of the Kamo river, and the monks of Mount Hiei.

[Sittingpractice]

Is anyone here a practitioner or teacher who can speak from the perspective of a Buddhist lineage?

I feel the board here departs from my core curiosity herein because I can’t find any one mention of the practice. In Christianity the practice includes struggle against evil and that translated in history to large scale long term conflict with the religion as an apsolutely centrepiece to the justification.

What my problem is with all there herein mentioned ‘buddhist’ conflicts (Japanese civil war, Tibetan, Mongol and historic SEA conflicts as mentioned, but also Korea and China could be argued) is that any practicing Buddhist will tell you straight off that your thoughts and feelings about practice are not practice. (you don’t need to echo to yourself what you already know)

What is more is that the practice does not separate you from the world it involves you with the world. This is the element that allows killing, for instance rodent infestations or a heinous aggressor, to be accepted by most sects I know.

So with those specifically in mind:

1. ‘In the name of the practice’ is not the practice
2. If your life is under real threat you get to determine how to protect yourself

Has Buddhism been a core justification of war like other religions have been. Or has Buddhism simply been a bystandard of wars and conflicts?

I ask not because I don’t have an answer but because I want to learn more about the involvement overall in history. Have ‘buddhist’ conflicts been more of a departure from practice like the way that Japanese Culture likes to ‘be’ Buddhist, or have they been out of necessity like in the development of the Shaolin Martial Arts?

What would be most interesting for me is the discovery of a sect truly departing from both of these routes to simply wage some kind of a holy war for decades.

[FigNorton]

@Sittingpractice

What would be most interesting for me is the discovery of a sect truly departing from both of these routes to simply wage some kind of a holy war for decades.

Zen masters in Japan during WWII endorsed the war as a holy war. Guess it wasn’t for decades.

“If ordered to march: tramp, tramp or shoot: bang, bang. This is the manifestation of the highest wisdom of enlightenment. The unity of Zen and war … extends to the farthest reaches of the holy war now under way.” – Zen Master Harada Daiun Sogaku – 1939

[Sittingpractice]

Harada Daiun Sogaku is not one I’m familiar with. I hadn’t come across quotes like this before. I will definitely be digging into that one. Thanks for the reference FigNorton, greatly appreciated!

[FigNorton]

You’re welcome. I grabbed it from a review of a book called “Zen at War”, which you might find interesting. Should have given the link in my earlier post:

Zen Holy War? — Baran Strategies