# Has there ever been a helicopter v helicopter dogfight? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 30, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941 "2013-07-30T20:04:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/1 "2013-07-30T20:04:20Z")
The only place I’ve ever heard of one happening is in videogames like Battlefield 3 or TV shows and movies (largely terrible ones). But has one ever happened IRL? Could one even happen IRL? I suppose if a Blackhawk or Little Bird found itself in the same airspace as an enemy Hind or Havoc the door gunners could blast away at each other or they could try to get lucky with their rockets and chain guns. But my general impression is that they really aren’t designed for that sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/2 "2013-07-30T20:13:34Z")
> **[Iran–Iraq War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq-Iran_War)** > > Stalemate; both sides claim victory >  Iran >  Iraq This war also saw the only confirmed air-to-air helicopter battles in history of warfare with the Iraqi Mi-25s flying against Iranian AH-1 SuperCobra on numerous occasions. The first instance of these helicopter “dogfights” happened when on the starting day of the war (22 September 1980), two Iranian SuperCobras crept up on two Mi-25s and hit them with TOW wire-guided antitank missiles. One Mi-25 went down immediately, the other was badly damaged and crashed before reaching base. The Iranians pulled off a repeat performance on 24 April 1981, destroying two Mi-25s without incurring losses to themselves. According to some unclassified documents, Iranian pilots achieved a 10 to 1 kill ratio over the Iraqi helicopter pilots during these engagements and even engaged Iraqi fixed wing aircraft. ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/3 "2013-07-30T20:24:16Z")
[Attack helicopters](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_helicopter) often carry air-air missiles (the Apache carries Stinger missiles) which can be used to attack other helicopters or attacking aircraft. It isn’t a primary role, though. You might have a chance with a Hellfire, but not with rocket pods. You might also be able to vector the minigun using tracers, but you will use your ammo pretty quick. It was fun when playing **LHX** and **Longbow** , though. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/4 "2013-07-30T20:26:05Z")
\*\*chacoguy \*\*beat me to the Iran-Iraq war report, so I will mention one engagement of cat and mouse that could qualify as an encounter, although no bullets or missiles were fired, the result was no less deadly: > **[Mi-24 Hind - Everything2.com](https://everything2.com/title/Mi-24+Hind)** > > "What the hell is that?...Oh, it's a Hind". -archiewood|my response to a photograph of an Mi-24A. The Hind is a combat helicopter and troop ca... > [@](#): > > Although the Hind is very fast its maneuverability is poor, probably due to its bulk and weight. The west did not see one until 1972 on the East-West German border. Both sides tested each other, much as their submarines used to play cat and mouse in the world’s oceans, seeing who could creep up on whom and remain unseen the longest. > > During the 1980s an encounter between the two sides’ helicopters graphically showed a serious flaw in the design of the Hind. An American AH-1 Huey Cobra met one while flying along the border between East and West Germany; the Hind had been ordered to intercept the Cobra and the pilots chased one another along the border for a while, the American pilot constantly pulling up sharply to force his faster opponent to overshoot. Apparently trying to duplicate this manoeuvre, the Russian pilot eventually pulled up too hard and stalled his aircraft. When attempting to pull out of the dive that followed, the main rotor blades of the Hind hit its tail boom and the helicopter crashed, killing everyone aboard. ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/5 "2013-07-30T20:26:12Z")
And as per the post from **chacoguy** - to do it with a TOW is pretty cool (I’m assuming the gunner drives the TOW to target). ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/6 "2013-07-30T20:30:08Z")
> [@si\_blakely](#): > > And as per the post from **chacoguy** - to do it with a TOW is pretty cool (I’m assuming the gunner drives the TOW to target). Correct, the TOW is a [wire-guided missile.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire-guided_missile) The acronym stands for Tube-launced, _optically tracked,_ wire-guided missile. ---
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/7 "2013-07-30T20:39:52Z")
I guess you guys never saw the documentary series _Airwolf_ back in the 80s? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/8 "2013-07-30T20:41:15Z")
> [@August\_West](#): > > I guess you guys never saw the documentary series _Airwolf_ back in the 80s? 😉 [Fire Birds!!!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_Birds) ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/9 "2013-07-30T20:48:16Z")
> [@si\_blakely](#): > > [Attack helicopters](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_helicopter) often carry air-air missiles (the Apache carries Stinger missiles) which can be used to attack other helicopters or attacking aircraft. It isn’t a primary role, though. > You might have a chance with a Hellfire, but not with rocket pods. You might also be able to vector the minigun using tracers, but you will use your ammo pretty quick. > > It was fun when playing **LHX** and **Longbow** , though. LOL - I can’t belive I found another LHX player! ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/10 "2013-07-30T21:53:19Z")
[This is also pretty badass.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Painting_lima85.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/11 "2013-07-30T22:54:22Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > [This is also pretty badass.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Painting_lima85.jpg) [Here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lima_Site_85) is the article that image goes to. Holy smoke, I’ve never heard of this but the Vietnamese attacked a clandestine US base in Laos with 4 biplanes and some dude shot them all down with an AK-47 from an Air America Huey. If I went back to when I was 15 and wrote the coolest action movie I could possibly think of, it still wouldn’t be that badass. ETA: A little more info [here](https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol52no2/iac/an-air-combat-first.html). Apparently there were 4 biplanes total and they shot down 2, the other two staying out of the way. The wiki page was a little confusing on that. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/12 "2013-07-30T23:19:41Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > [This is also pretty badass.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Painting_lima85.jpg) That is pretty badass. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/13 "2013-07-30T23:43:35Z")
Marginal, but I used to have a news clipping on my board of a Gulf War I A-10 pilot posing with one arm draped over his plane’s nose cannon. He had just acquired the first air-to-air kill by an A-10 when his missiles wouldn’t lock onto an Iraqi helicopter, so he just roared up and let his tank-killer shred the thing. A-10s are built for a lot of things, but dogfights ain’t one of 'em. ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/14 "2013-07-30T23:52:04Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Correct, the TOW is a [wire-guided missile.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire-guided_missile) > > The acronym stands for Tube-launced, _optically tracked,_ wire-guided missile. I know what a TOW missile is, it is the specifics of how the crew in a two-seat attack helicopter divide up the combat tasks that I am unsure about (let alone how a single-seater manages to fly and handle target acquisition/guidance at the same time). ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/15 "2013-07-31T01:31:04Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Marginal, but I used to have a news clipping on my board of a Gulf War I A-10 pilot posing with one arm draped over his plane’s nose cannon. He had just acquired the first air-to-air kill by an A-10 when his missiles wouldn’t lock onto an Iraqi helicopter, so he just roared up and let his tank-killer shred the thing. A-10s are built for a lot of things, but dogfights ain’t one of 'em. An F-15 took out an Iraqi helicopter in flight with a [bomb](http://www.f-15e.info/joomla/stories/182-tim-bennetts-war#0-4-bombing-the-helicopter) during the Gulf War too. Both are hard kills but helicopters are fairly easy game for jets. Now if a helicopter took out an F15 or A-10, that would be pretty amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/16 "2013-07-31T01:47:44Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > An F-15 took out an Iraqi helicopter in flight with a [bomb](http://www.f-15e.info/joomla/stories/182-tim-bennetts-war#0-4-bombing-the-helicopter) during the Gulf War too. Both are hard kills but helicopters are fairly easy game for jets. Now if a helicopter took out an F15 or A-10, that would be pretty amazing. That may be the only air-to-air kill ever recorded by an F-15E. That’s a two-seat, ground attack variant semi-affectionately called the “Mud Hen”. I filmed a lot of test missions chasing that aircraft years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Vaevictis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f04885/32.png) [@Vaevictis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vaevictis)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/17 "2013-07-31T01:56:18Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > That is pretty badass. Yeah, it would have been badass if the US beat the Vietnamese in the war. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/18 "2013-07-31T04:03:17Z")
:Hands **Vaevictis** some Charmin: :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/19 "2013-07-31T05:16:58Z")
> [@Vaevictis](#): > > Yeah, it would have been badass if the US beat the Vietnamese in the war. As Otto said in _A Fish Called Wanda_: “Shut up. We didn’t lose Vietnam. It was a tie!” ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/20 "2013-07-31T05:21:33Z")
I liked the movie one with David Janson that took place in a hanger. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941.md?page=2)