# Has there ever been a helicopter v helicopter dogfight? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 30, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941 "2013-07-30T20:04:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/21 "2013-07-31T09:16:12Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > That may be the only air-to-air kill ever recorded by an F-15E. That’s a two-seat, ground attack variant semi-affectionately called the “Mud Hen”. I filmed a lot of test missions chasing that aircraft years ago. That’s nothing. An unarmed EF-111 made a kill against an Iraqi Mirage F1 by [managing to maneuver it into the ground](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics/Grumman_EF-111A_Raven#Operational_history).😉 It’s been ages since I’ve read it, but in [Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering](http://www.amazon.com/Fighter-Combat-Maneuvering-Robert-Shaw/dp/0870210599) Robert Shaw made a very convincing argument that if the helicopter is in skilled hands and isn’t taken by surprise an aircraft could have a hell of a time trying to shoot it down. The book was written in 1985, and one of his recommendations for use against low flying helicopters was to drop retarded bombs at it. Most of the book is unavailable online, but pages 193-194 can be found on [google books](http://books.google.com/books?id=hBxBdKr0beYC&q=helicopter#v=snippet&q=helicopter&f=false) where much of the difficulties are described. ---
**Author:** ![Cugel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cugel/32/1199_2.png) [@Cugel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cugel)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/22 "2013-07-31T10:49:41Z")
Next question: has there been a dog v dog helicopterfight? ---
**Author:** ![Orionizer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orionizer/32/4442_2.png) [@Orionizer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orionizer)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/23 "2013-07-31T13:37:15Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > LOL - I can’t belive I found another LHX player! One more here! Waited and WAITED for Babbage’s to lower the price and finally gave up. Gave $50 for it and next time I went, it was around $35. Typical for me, but was worth it and fun as hell! ---
**Author:** ![Werekoala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7993a0/32.png) [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/24 "2013-07-31T14:24:50Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > An F-15 took out an Iraqi helicopter in flight with a [bomb](http://www.f-15e.info/joomla/stories/182-tim-bennetts-war#0-4-bombing-the-helicopter) during the Gulf War too. Both are hard kills but helicopters are fairly easy game for jets. Now if a helicopter took out an F15 or A-10, that would be pretty amazing. Hmm… would an F-15 (or comparable aircraft) on full afterburners buzzing a helicopter possibly cause the 'copter to lose control and crash? ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/25 "2013-07-31T14:45:44Z")
> [@Werekoala](#): > > Hmm… would an F-15 (or comparable aircraft) on full afterburners buzzing a helicopter possibly cause the 'copter to lose control and crash? The second link that **Dissonance** posted suggests that’s a possibility. Mainly from robbing the rotors of lift. Close to the ground, the helo could run out of room before being able to recover. No idea if it’s actually happened though. When I first read the post on the Mirage kill, I thought the EF-111 burnt out the Mirage’s electronics with some directed jamming. I’m surprised that it (from all of the sources I briefly surveyed) though actually looks like a maneuvering kill instead of a EMP kill. Depending on the source you read, the EF-111 scooted over a ridge that the Mirage didn’t see in the dark, or the EF-111 made a max performance pull out of a steep dive, aided by the Terrain Following Radar, that the Mirage couldn’t duplicate. The biplane fight is crazy. Both that the Huey was able to get that close to the planes, and that the shooter was able to down them with an AK, and not, say, the door gunner’s M-60. Fantastic shooting. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/26 "2013-08-01T01:07:57Z")
If any two choppers would dogfight, its these two: [Airwolf vs Blue Thunder CBS - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g29eXR_nZc8) [Airwolf Vs Blue Thunder 2005 - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r5-Ptjjb3k) ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/27 "2013-08-01T04:47:33Z")
As movies go, [Capricorn One](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkOu3PibneM) had a pretty unique helicopter fight. (Warning: spoilers) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/28 "2013-08-01T07:16:20Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > When I first read the post on the Mirage kill, I thought the EF-111 burnt out the Mirage’s electronics with some directed jamming. I’m surprised that it (from all of the sources I briefly surveyed) though actually looks like a maneuvering kill instead of a EMP kill. Depending on the source you read, the EF-111 scooted over a ridge that the Mirage didn’t see in the dark, or the EF-111 made a max performance pull out of a steep dive, aided by the Terrain Following Radar, that the Mirage couldn’t duplicate. Back in the early 1980’s, an Israeli UAV managed to bring down a Syrian MiG with some nimble maneuvering. The controllers got a registered kill and everything, even drawing a silhouette on the side of the UAV. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/29 "2013-08-01T10:00:00Z")
> [@](#): > > the American pilot constantly pulling up sharply to force his faster opponent to overshoot. Apparently trying to duplicate this manoeuvre, the Russian pilot eventually pulled up too hard and stalled his aircraft. When attempting to pull out of the dive that followed, the main rotor blades of the Hind hit its tail boom and the helicopter crashed, killing everyone aboard. Holy Cow, that was a kill! A Soviet plane downed by an American. Or did they deem it to be accidental pilot error? ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/30 "2013-08-01T12:50:31Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Back in the early 1980’s, an Israeli UAV managed to bring down a Syrian MiG with some nimble maneuvering. The controllers got a registered kill and everything, even drawing a silhouette on the side of the UAV. For those who haven’t heard of the story until now (like me), here’s a [link](http://www.iaf.org.il/4392-40421-en/IAF.aspx) to a cite for your post. That story is hilarious. Glad they got recognition for their feat. It’s also telling as to how unhappy in the stall—and let’s not even talk about a spin—a lot of military jets from the 50s through the early 70s were. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/31 "2013-08-01T13:47:05Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Back in the early 1980’s, an Israeli UAV managed to bring down a Syrian MiG with some nimble maneuvering. The controllers got a registered kill and everything, even drawing a silhouette on the side of the UAV. Well, if we want to go that way, the very first devices which could be called “surface to air missiles” were, in fact, rudimentary radio-controlled jet-powered UAVs. It’s a big plot point in one of the Buck Danny comics set in the Korean war. [QUOTE=Ranchoth] As movies go, [Capricorn One](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkOu3PibneM) had a pretty unique helicopter fight. (Warning: spoilers) [/QUOTE] Blue Thunder too. They did loops and everything. ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/32 "2013-08-01T14:00:52Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Blue Thunder too. They did loops and everything. I thought that was impossible 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/33 "2013-08-01T18:12:40Z")
> [@Cugel](#): > > Next question: has there been a dog v dog helicopterfight? [But of course](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nTsqOAB8go) ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/34 "2013-08-02T02:55:44Z")
> [@si\_blakely](#): > > I thought that was impossible 😉 Nope. Red Bull acrobatic specially modified BO-105 doing loops and rolls. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/m3Dz_XBrER8/maxresdefault.jpg "Red Bull Air Force - Aerobatic Helicopter- Chuck Aaron 2011") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3Dz_XBrER8) ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/35 "2013-08-02T04:52:05Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Nope. Red Bull acrobatic specially modified BO-105 doing loops and rolls. > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3Dz\_XBrER8](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3Dz_XBrER8) what is the sound of a looping helicopter? whoosh Plot spoilers for _Blue Thunder_ ahead: The washed-out police helicopter pilot is claimed to have looped a copter in Nam. The ace military pilot (and bad guy) claims it is impossible, and discovers to his cost in the final dogfight that it isn’t. Of course, looping a helicopter has been possible since the 60s, when it was first achieved. But the risks of acrobatics are high, as shown up thread with the MIL-24 that crashed after hitting its own tail with the rotor during an extreme stall recovery. ---
**Author:** ![DeptfordX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DeptfordX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeptfordX)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941/36 "2013-08-03T23:00:33Z")
To be fair, that doesn’t really look like a classic loop. More like, the chopper goes up until it goes inverted then starts falling out of the sky until the pilot manages to get the nose up again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-helicopter-v-helicopter-dogfight/664941.md?page=1)