# Has there ever been a real-life equivalent to the "Kobayashi Maru" test? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 14, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-real-life-equivalent-to-the-kobayashi-maru-test/686119 "2014-04-14T23:28:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Yarster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/7c8e57/32.png) [@Yarster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yarster)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-real-life-equivalent-to-the-kobayashi-maru-test/686119/81 "2014-04-15T23:41:20Z")
In my job, I often have to prepare engineers for grueling orals exams for us to win Government contracts. Often the Government’s approach to selecting a winner once they have downselected to three or so companies based on price and technical capabilities is to give you a “sample task” representative of the problems they face today in their program. We are typically only given two week’s notice and sometimes only a week’s notice as to when they want to do these exams and I will have to take six subject matter experts in esoteric engineering fields and build a cohesive team in a short amount of time. While I have a specific technique for doing this that I cannot fully divulge here. I can tell you that as part of the practice questions, we do indeed create an impossible scenario to test the team out under stress. It’s not truly ‘impossible’ for them to answer, but there is no way they will have all the information they need to answer it properly, nor will they have enough time to provide all the details needed. The trick is for them to realize they are missing the data, make up numbers, justify why what they made up is quasi-valid based on what is known about the situation presented, and answer as much as they can in the limited amount of time they have. Most people feel like they failed after they get this question, but I always tell them afterwards that was the point of the exercise and it is very effective in getting people who don’t like to improvise or ‘guess’ (like engineers) to do exactly that. Some of the bio-chemstry and genetics exams I had in college were like this as well - too many questions and not enough time on the exams. Every single person walked out with some of the questions unanswered and felt like they failed it. Then you’d find out afterwards that because it was graded on a curve, you still got an ‘A’ even with a 70%. At least with my ‘impossible’ question, I let everyone know that was the point of the exercise. The teachers who gave those exams let you sweat through several days wondering if you should drop the class because you failed the exam only to find out you passed. ---
**Author:** ![ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-real-life-equivalent-to-the-kobayashi-maru-test/686119/82 "2014-04-16T00:27:24Z")
> [@](#): > > the dice have 36 possible rolls; the range of results has 11 members; 36 is not divisible by 11 Fractions. They said nothing about fractions! We could map them. You say, "Here is a map that translates results into the numbers 2-12. The interviewers look puzzled at first at the numbers. Especially at the part that says, “On rolls of 34, 35, and 36, exclaim ‘takesey-backseys’ and re-roll.” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-real-life-equivalent-to-the-kobayashi-maru-test/686119/83 "2014-04-16T01:28:24Z")
> [@UncleBill](#): > > When I went through Marine Corps Officers Candidate School (OCS) back in 1987 there was a Reaction Course. The exercise was your fire team or squad would do a tactical exercise way up on top of a hill, being graded on it, then your group had X minutes to get down the hill to the reaction course where there were physical barriers and material you could use to get across, or get the wounded guy across, or some semblance of getting something from Point A to Point B. Not all the problems were solvable given the material and conditions, but the leader was graded on how they approached the problems and handled themselves as leaders. Then you humped back up that damnable hill and did the whole thing over again with a new leader, all friggin day long, up and down, up and down, up and down. This appears to be closest to the actual question of the OP and I can provide anecdotal support for it. A buddy of mine became a cop and in the police academy they were given a problem in which they were faced with a bomb with a two minute timer being discovered next to the operating theater where an important witness was undergoing a medical procedure which, if interrupted, would kill him and the bomb could not be defused in any way. The cadets were rated on their ability to think through the problem, (and the speed with which they recognized that the situation was hopeless). ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-real-life-equivalent-to-the-kobayashi-maru-test/686119/84 "2014-04-16T01:38:18Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > This appears to be closest to the actual question of the OP and I can provide anecdotal support for it. A buddy of mine became a cop and in the police academy they were given a problem in which they were faced with a bomb with a two minute timer being discovered next to the operating theater where an important witness was undergoing a medical procedure which, if interrupted, would kill him and the bomb could not be defused in any way. > The cadets were rated on their ability to think through the problem, (and the speed with which they recognized that the situation was hopeless). Interesting. Was this more of a Dungeon Master role playing game scenario( “I try to defuse the bomb.” “Your attempt to defuse the bomb fails.”), or was this a live action course where the bomb was a physical prop that made a “boom” noise when it went off, and the functionality was sealed inside very securely? What if the candidate threw the bomb at the wall, or made a wall of tables, chairs, beds, miscellaneous hospital equipment, his hat, shirt, shoes, and whatever else he could find between the bomb and the patient? Did the test administrators recalculate the blast radius and vectors or was that not allowed? If it wasn’t allowed, that would seem like a true rigged scenario. “I spit on the bomb.” “Nothing happens.” “I kick the bomb.” “You stub your toe. Nothing happens to the bomb.” “I pee on the bomb.” “Nothing happens. The Chief sees you and demotes you.” “I fire a bullet at the bomb.” “Your gun jams.” “I clear my gun jam, reload, and fire a bullet at the bomb.” “Your gun jams.” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-real-life-equivalent-to-the-kobayashi-maru-test/686119/85 "2014-04-16T02:53:38Z")
It was a thought exercise in which every proposal to defuse the bomb or move the patient was countered with an explanation that the effort would fail. (E.g., the bomb was placed in a container with motion sensors so that any effort to move the bomb caused it to explode. The motion sensors fed through the trigger circuit on a dead man’s switch so that disabling the sensors triggered the bomb.) I was not in the exercise, so I do not have every detail and I am not going to try to second guess the mechanics (or electronics) of the scenario. My point was merely to provide anecdotal support that there are agencies that do use a “_Kobayashi Maru_” exercise to test their students. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-real-life-equivalent-to-the-kobayashi-maru-test/686119/86 "2014-04-16T03:27:47Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Making the lake deeper is equivalent to draining it partially once. The depth of the lake doesn’t influence the average water level over time. > [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I meant the surface level of the lake is going to be the same. Digging it deeper just means more water will be put in. The surface level won’t be lower. I’m still not following you. I’m not saying you’re wrong (I’m sure that I am), I’d just like to understand this. Say there is a lake that holds 50Ml of water. The water level may fluctuate but over a year the amount of water added via run-off from nearby hills, and the amount lost via evaporation and drainage is about the same. Then it turns out it’s feasible to dig out material from the lake. So we remove 20Ml of earth. Now the lake still holds 50Ml, but the water level is much lower. For the water level to return back to where it was, it must gain more water than it loses but why has the run-off/evaporation-drainage equation changed? Or, are we saying that the flooding itself is actually an important part of how the water level is set? The lake gains more water than it loses every year, and floods. If the lake were dug deeper, it would gain water year on year because it doesn’t have the flood “mechanism”, until the water level is back where it was. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-real-life-equivalent-to-the-kobayashi-maru-test/686119/87 "2014-04-16T03:59:29Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Couldn’t you have all sides of each die be zero? The probability of the numbers 2-12 coming up would therefore all be the same. I was going to number each die’s faces with 7-12. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-real-life-equivalent-to-the-kobayashi-maru-test/686119/88 "2014-04-16T04:49:57Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > OK, one die has faces: 1,2,3,4,5,6 > The other has faces: ×1, ×1, ×1, ×2, ×2, ×2 > > Unless it’s explicitly stated in the requirements that the outcome may only be achieved by adding the rolled results, that’s a working solution. Except for the results of 7, 9, and 11. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-real-life-equivalent-to-the-kobayashi-maru-test/686119/89 "2014-04-16T07:25:20Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Except for the results of 7, 9, and 11. Yes, as already pointed out in posts #73, #77, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-real-life-equivalent-to-the-kobayashi-maru-test/686119/90 "2014-04-16T08:01:08Z")
I figured out a way to do it with 8 results, not 11. One die is numbered cylindrically (one side and one opposite side is left blank on both dice, so 4 sides only are used) from 1-4. The other die is numbered 5-8 cylindrically. Glue the two dice together at a 45 degree angle on blank sides so that when rolled, only one die can be face up while the other die is on the edge. I think the 0-1 and 13+ answers are just cop outs. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-real-life-equivalent-to-the-kobayashi-maru-test/686119/91 "2014-04-16T08:41:33Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-real-life-equivalent-to-the-kobayashi-maru-test/686119/92 "2014-04-16T13:37:36Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I’m still not following you. I’m not saying you’re wrong (I’m sure that I am), I’d just like to understand this. > > Say there is a lake that holds 50Ml of water. The water level may fluctuate but over a year the amount of water added via run-off from nearby hills, and the amount lost via evaporation and drainage is about the same. > > Then it turns out it’s feasible to dig out material from the lake. > So we remove 20Ml of earth. Now the lake still holds 50Ml, but the water level is much lower. For the water level to return back to where it was, it must gain more water than it loses but why has the run-off/evaporation-drainage equation changed? > > Or, are we saying that the flooding itself is actually an important part of how the water level is set? The lake gains more water than it loses every year, and floods. If the lake were dug deeper, it would gain water year on year because it doesn’t have the flood “mechanism”, until the water level is back where it was. I’m sure I’m not explaining it well. This was decades ago. But there was a lake that flooded in heavy rains. The answer that some teams came up with in the past was just to dig the lake deeper, like that would keep it from flooding. But no, people wanted the surface of the lake where it was, so if you dug the lake deeper, they’d just pour even more water in it to get the water level at the desired, um, level. So then it’s at the level it’s always been before anyway the next time it rains hard and the the lake floods the neighborhood houses. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-real-life-equivalent-to-the-kobayashi-maru-test/686119/93 "2014-04-16T13:53:34Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > I figured out a way to do it with 8 results, not 11. > > One die is numbered cylindrically (one side and one opposite side is left blank on both dice, so 4 sides only are used) from 1-4. The other die is numbered 5-8 cylindrically. Glue the two dice together at a 45 degree angle on blank sides so that when rolled, only one die can be face up while the other die is on the edge. > > I think the 0-1 and 13+ answers are just cop outs. 😃 Having a hard time visualizing this one. Can you give us a list of all possible outcomes? Wait, never mind. But a solution with 8 possible outcomes is even more of a cop-out than the ones that deliver all zeroes, ones, or numbers higher than twelve. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-real-life-equivalent-to-the-kobayashi-maru-test/686119/94 "2014-04-16T14:03:54Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I’m sure I’m not explaining it well. This was decades ago. But there was a lake that flooded in heavy rains. The answer that some teams came up with in the past was just to dig the lake deeper, like that would keep it from flooding. But no, people wanted the surface of the lake where it was, so if you dug the lake deeper, they’d just pour even more water in it to get the water level at the desired, um, level. So then it’s at the level it’s always been before anyway the next time it rains hard and the the lake floods the neighborhood houses. Solution: drain the lake; install a drain plug in the center, with a long pipe that leads to a lower part of town; refill the lake. When it starts to rain heavily, pull the plug. Or have the piping lead to a pumphouse; pump the excess water to a water tower. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-real-life-equivalent-to-the-kobayashi-maru-test/686119/95 "2014-04-16T15:20:35Z")
That would not have been practical, for a number of reasons. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-real-life-equivalent-to-the-kobayashi-maru-test/686119/96 "2014-04-16T17:07:26Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > We had something sort of similar in a geography course I took as an undergraduate. There was a park lake in town that was notorious for flooding the surrounding neighborhoods when it rained heavily. We were divided into groups and tasked with determining how to prevent the lake from flooding. What the instructor didn’t tell us was there was nothing that could be done, that was the correct answer. He said afterward that many if not most groups came up with “Make the lake deeper,” which wouldn’t matter if the water surface was still at the same level. My group finally came up with the correct answer, that shit happens and nothing could be done to prevent that particular lake from flooding. It’s going to flood as long as you have a lake right there due to a number of factors that would not have been practical to change. There does seem to be something missing from this. My take on it is that to get ‘the impossible situation’ to come about the watertable would need to also be at the lake’s level (or close enough), then digging it deeper would not matter (it would just refill), although it could work if you break through a impermeable layer of earth to a dryer subsurface soil to draw down the local water table - but that would depend on such a sub surface condition existing. There are wells that sometimes can be dug for exactly this purpose. Additional solutions would involve delaying/stopping run off from getting into this lake, catchment basins, and water diversion channels on the hillsides that drain into this lake. Plants planted on the hills also can help in some situations. Making it wider could also help if the water table is only locally that high and the lake could be extended to a area with a lower one, again the right subsoil conditions and topography would need to be present. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-real-life-equivalent-to-the-kobayashi-maru-test/686119/97 "2014-04-16T17:49:26Z")
> [@Pixel\_Dent](#): > > Twenty five years ago I interviewed at one company and after a full day of technical interviews with lots of programming problems the last question was this… > > “Design two six sided dice so that the probability of all results from 2 to 12 are equal.” After playing with the equations enough to realize it was impossible, I ended up writing a proof that it was impossible and giving them that. I wonder if this might have arisen as a corruption of the puzzle of designing two nonstandard six sided dice [with positive integer faces to be added in just the usual way; no trick question stuff] so that the probability of all results from 2 to 12 was equal _to their probability if the dice were standard_. (Aka, [Sicherman dice](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicherman_dice)) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-real-life-equivalent-to-the-kobayashi-maru-test/686119/98 "2014-04-16T18:27:19Z")
> [@pullin](#): > > About post # 20 & again on post 39 [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=690183&), I mentioned my youngster had been put through a Kobayashi Maru equivalent in the sim training for a Airline Transport rating. This was done by the training company, not his airline. They twice subjected him (as pilot-in-command) to a sudden unrecoverable wind-shear immediately after takeoff. I got to witness this as a “passenger” in the simulator. I never really understood the reason for it. It makes some sense to me. Presumably, you want a pilot to continue attempting to aviate even in the middle of a situation he believes to be unrecoverable. After all, he may be mistaken, his instruments may be faulty, etc. A good pilot should die attempting to recover from a situation that he believes to be unrecoverable, even if that belief is correct, and the choices he makes should be rational until the moment of his death. Testing this in a simulator is a not-bad idea, though one can never generate the fear of a real-world unrecoverable problem. > [@RickJay](#): > > It doesn’t make any sense though. The “Kobayashi Maru” simulation wasn’t a hard, thankless job. It was an experiment (fictionally) designed to see how the student reacted to complete, total, unmitigated failure. It’s not that you cannot achieve everything your boss asks you to do, it’s that you and your entire crew are **doomed to die a horrible death** no matter what you do. > > It should be noted that the Kobayashi Maru simulation does not make a great deal of sense if you look at it very closely, it’s just a way to introduce themes and foreshadow some events in the film “Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.” > > pullin’s example would be a more accurate example. I am sure there are examples from the field of psychology where people are subjected to similarly unfair, unwinnable simulations. Again, though - the real world has a lot of problems that _appear_ unsolvable. Some of those problems actually are unsolvable, some are just very, very difficult. If you’re running a military or quasi-military organization, you want officers who will try their darnedest to solve problems until they’re dead or incapacitated, even if they genuinely believe the problem cannot be solved. ---
**Author:** ![Cartoonacy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/848f3c/32.png) [@Cartoonacy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartoonacy)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-real-life-equivalent-to-the-kobayashi-maru-test/686119/99 "2014-04-16T19:24:47Z")
> [@Pixel\_Dent](#): > > “Design two six sided dice so that the probability of all results from 2 to 12 are equal.” After playing with the equations enough to realize it was impossible, I ended up writing a proof that it was impossible and giving them that. Label the sides of one die 1 through 6, as normal. On the other die, label three of the sides 1, and the other three 2. Roll the dice and multiply the results. There’s an equal 1/12 chance of rolling each result from 2 to 12. There’s also a 1/12 chance of rolling a 1, but the question didn’t say that you couldn’t have other results – only that the probability of all results from 2 to 12 were equal. Another possibility is to give each die six blank faces. That way, the probability of all results from 2 to 12 is also equal: zero. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cartoonacy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/848f3c/32.png) [@Cartoonacy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartoonacy)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-real-life-equivalent-to-the-kobayashi-maru-test/686119/100 "2014-04-16T19:31:00Z")
> [@Cartoonacy](#): > > Label the sides of one die 1 through 6, as normal. On the other die, label three of the sides 1, and the other three 2. Roll the dice and multiply the results. There’s an equal 1/12 chance of rolling each result from 2 to 12. Wait – I just realized that’s wrong, but I was too late to edit. :smack: Label the second die 0 on three faces and 6 on the other three. Then _add_ them, not multiply. That works better. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-real-life-equivalent-to-the-kobayashi-maru-test/686119.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-real-life-equivalent-to-the-kobayashi-maru-test/686119.md?page=6)